Shownotes:
Join us on this enlightening episode as Dr. Dacher Keltner, renowned emotion scientist and advisor to Pixar’s Inside Out and Inside Out 2, dives into the profound impact of awe on our lives. Drawing from his extensive research and insights from his latest book, Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life, he explains how this emotion elevates our daily experiences and deepens our connections to the world. Tune in to discover practical strategies for cultivating a richer, awe-inspired life and embracing the vastness of our world with renewed perspective and gratitude.
📣 Special gift for Evolving with Gratitude listeners! Use the promotion code below for 20% off the Awe in Education course:
Promo Code: 20GIFT
About Our Guest:
Dr. Keltner is one of the world’s foremost emotion scientists. He is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the director of the Greater Good Science Center. He has over 200 scientific publications and six books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox. He has written for many popular outlets, from The New York Times to Slate. He was also the scientific advisor behind Pixar’s Inside Out, is involved with the education of health care providers and judges, and has consulted extensively for Google, Apple, and Pinterest, on issues related to emotion and well-being.
Thrive Global Article:
The Power of Awe with Dacher Keltner: Exploring Profound Emotions “Inside Out”
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Twitter - @LainieRowell
Instagram - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
Lainie Rowell: Hello friends. Welcome to a treat. I have Dr. Dacker Keltner with us. And Dacher, thank you so much for being here.
Dacher Keltner: It's good to be with you, Lainie.
Lainie Rowell: I am so excited. I want to start out with something. I didn't time it this way.
I really wanted you to be on the show for a long time. It just so happens that you were a scientific consultant on the movie Inside Out and I honestly didn't even know this until like a day ago. The sequel comes out at the same time this episode is going to come out.
I did not plan this.
Dacher Keltner: Man, are you in good shape?
Yeah, that was one of the great privileges of my life, my career was, you know, I am part of the science of emotion. I have a lab here at Berkeley that studies emotions like compassion and gratitude and awe and shame and anxiety and, and for Inside Out, the first one in 2010, Pete Docter called me, who's the director of Inside Out.
He had just won the Academy Award for Up. And he's like, Hey, over at Pixar, we're thinking about making a movie on emotion and you teach emotion at Berkeley, come on over and, and I'm not kidding. I actually thought he wanted to use my voice as a character.
Lainie Rowell: I find your voice to be mellifluous, so I'm all for it.
Dacher Keltner: That's really nice of you, but you know, that was a mistake. And what they really wanted was to, to talk about emotion and the science of emotion. How many are there? And what good do they do for us? You know, which they do a lot of good for us. And how do we use them wisely and how are they part of our identities?
And then I had yet again, another privilege to consult on Inside Out 2, which I think has a profoundly important message for our time about young people accepting themselves and, and valuing the right things like friendship and our era of anxiety. So it has been extraordinary to spend so much time on science and data and publishing in obscure journals and then to see it on the screen, like. Wow, you know, it's thrilling. So I feel really lucky. Thanks for mentioning it.
Lainie Rowell: Well, you've been working on it for now, like close to 15 years, because we know, especially with animated, that's a long, long process. And so you, you came in and five years for production, right?
Yeah, we got to see it.
Dacher Keltner: Yep. Yeah, I mean it's incredible They work they work in small teams of three or four people just drawing scenes what are called story cards Or storyboards and then they draw 60 to 70 thousand of those for a film, you know They're just working out all the scenes and and I just got to see it all unfold. It makes me feel very deeply grateful to be a part of that.
Lainie Rowell: Well, you have so much expertise and you've done the scholarly articles, the scholarly journals, and then to have something that could go out to such a wide audience. And really share this message of how we need to embrace all emotions, even the unpleasant emotions, and I think we're further along, and I would say definitely in part to Inside Out, but I think as we're recording in 2024, a lot further along than we were pre that coming out, pre the pandemic, so many things.
And I think what that movie does, and I think you've said this, is it does a really good job explaining that happiness is found in a rich mixture of emotions.
Dacher Keltner: The science of emotion was really starting to arrive at this idea that all of the emotions have their purpose, you know?
Even an emotion like envy which has a role in Inside Out 2, can lead you to good things if you use it in the right way and don't hurt people. And in Inside Out, the first one, it was sadness. A lot of people think that sadness, because it feels painful in some sense, is something to be avoided or medicated or shut down.
And in fact, the opposite is true. And Inside Out brought that message, like, we need to, like you said,, embrace the emotions, make them part of our consciousness and our relationships. And, you know, Lainie, when it came out, I was like, wow, there are going to be a lot of people who get that wisdom and, and, and maybe live better lives.
Lainie Rowell: I think they did a beautiful job of honoring the science. They took, obviously, artistic liberties here and there, and for people who are listening, and a lot of listeners are educators, so feel free to Yeah, bring that in. But of course, a lot of parents too. And so where this is really hitting home for me is that I have a 10 year old.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And
Lainie Rowell: I have a 13 year old.
Dacher Keltner: Oh, you are prime.
Lainie Rowell: I am.
Dacher Keltner: Man, Lainie, you're in it.
Lainie Rowell: So Riley in the first one is 11, if I'm not mistaken. And in this one she's 13, is that correct?
Dacher Keltner: Yes, correct.
Lainie Rowell: So we get the preteen version and the teen version, right? The tween and the teen. Pixar's not sponsoring this episode, nor is Disney, but is there anything you're excited for people to see in this next phase of Riley's life?
Dacher Keltner: Well, I think the first is anxiety who's this, in some sense, the central new character and young people today, 30 to 40 percent are grappling with anxiety or depression. The pandemic hit us really hard. And so what do we do about this? What insights do we apply to this? And the film arrives at a thesis that really you can find in all the great contemplative traditions, like Buddhist Meditation, Prayer, etc., Be kind to yourself, be open and accepting of all human experience. You know, it's a great American Transcendentalism theme. And I really look forward to how that will be talked about in our culture at large, is this idea of whatever the feeling is, it has a point, it tells you something, and then we use it wisely, we accept it, and we grow out of it.
And I think we need that message right now in facing these times we face.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I'm, I'm so excited. It's almost 10 years since the first one. And so we're ready for this next one. I'm so grateful that you have brought this through your consulting on the project. And I just think it's a really important message that everyone needs to hear.
Dacher Keltner: I do too.
Lainie Rowell: And I think that also, I mean, There's so much you do that I don't know about, but I, I do my research when I interview someone. Yeah. Not to make you uncomfortable like I'm a stalker or anything, but I do, I do a deep dive, try to at least, and one thing I didn't have to do a deep dive on prior to this was looking at the Greater Good Science Center, because this is a rich resource that I have used for years, and in fact, before writing Evolving with Gratitude, and Bold Gratitude.
I really dived into the resources, and one of the things that I think you all do so well is show where there's connections between these different emotions. Your work on awe, which I connect to gratitude very naturally, and I see that you all have done that through the Greater Good Science Center.
So, for people who might not know about the Greater Good Science Center, can you tell a little bit about how that came to be and what that has to offer everyone?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, 22 years ago, Tom and Ruth Ann Hornaday, two Cal alumni, in the wake of losing their daughter early to skin cancer, wanted to create something that brought a lot of peace to the world and this is in the wake of the 9 11 attacks.
It's kind of a different political crisis and so at the time, positive psychology was really starting to take off, you know, Marty Seligman and Jonathan Haidt and Barb Fredrickson. But over out here on the West Coast at UC Berkeley, we were like, well, you know, there's an East Coast version of optimism and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
And there's a West Coast version of like cooperation and kindness and compassion and meditation. And so we timed it really right. And what we do at the Greater Good Science Center is we have a magazine online that probably, it serves what you go to it for, which is like, Hey, what's the latest study?
How can I talk about it? We have a library of practices, Greater Good in Action. How do I teach these people that I'm leading in a hospital or at my workplace how to breathe in a mindful way? We have practices. We have a podcast that I host, you know, that It reaches hundreds of thousands of people, like, brief episodes, interesting people from all over the world, practicing awe or gratitude or compassion or, you know, listening to music for well being or being out in nature.
We have science going on, so, you know, it, we're very proud that for free, we can give away these resources to millions of people. We have an education program. Any educator out there should go to our at ggie.berkeley.Edu. I just put up an awe course there, you know, man, you're teaching, you know, a bunch of 13 year olds.
Good luck. And you know, how do I teach them about gratitude? How do I teach them about an awe walk? So it's been 20 years in the making and serving a lot of people. And we're really we feel very proud of where it is.
Lainie Rowell: Well, and you should, and I had an opportunity. I have read your book, Awe, and I want to talk about that.
I also had a chance to take your course, Awe in Education. So I do really encourage whatever your workplace, if you're an educator, definitely check out the EDU stuff. It's specific to K 12. And if you are in some other situation, the greater good in action resources are so, I love it. They're not like, Three hours long.
These practices are typically five to 15 minutes. So very easy to incorporate into a team meeting, a staff meeting,.
Dacher Keltner: Thank you.
Lainie Rowell: For the listeners. I already told Dacher when he said my name, I got really excited and overwhelmed with joy because I have heard his voice so much on the Science of Happiness podcast.
And I really do think that that mission of peace to the world is being accomplished. And so. I'm honored to be someone who is taking the things from Greater Good Science Center and putting it out in front of audiences that I get to serve. I want to get to your book, because you had, and again, you're very busy.
You're, Professor at Berkeley. You're doing all this stuff for Greater Good Science Center. You're an author. I mean, there's so many things that you're doing. And your latest book, Awe, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life, just came out. So I'd love for you to share a little bit about, , we can look back on your career and awe has definitely been a constant, something that you've always wanted to share with people.
So tell us How this book came to be, and why you believe it's so important that we pay attention to awe.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, the book came to be, and thank you for asking the personal side to the journey. In large part, how I was raised. I was raised by a visual artist, my dad, and a teacher, my mom, who also I taught poetry at Cal State Sacramento and literature, women's studies, and I grew up in the late 60s, so it was kind of an awesome, it was an awe inspiring time.
I was in Laurel Canyon, where there's a lot of rock and roll and the like, but more importantly, my parents really had this approach to life about, wonder and go after mystery and feel awe and go to art museums and listen to music and get involved politically and so forth. So it's in my childhood. And then when I developed my scientific career and I was like, wow, I'm going to be an emotion scientist in 1992.
And that's when I began my professorship. You know, one of the things that we do in the science of emotion is we pick an emotion that we love and we study it for 15, 20 years, you know, and I've studied compassion for a long time and embarrassment, who has a role in Inside Out 2, and then awe, and awe I was just like, if ever there was a fascinating thing to study scientifically, this is it.
Can you do it? How do we measure it? What does it do for us? And then, you know, to our times. Lainie. You know, we are living just record levels of stress and record levels of anxiety. I myself, you know, I've had periods early in my adulthood of deep anxiety and awe always pointed me in the right direction.
It gave me meaning. It gave me perspective. It gave me a sense of connecting to others. It calms stress, whether it was, backpacking or listening to music or political activism and , I looked at our times and the data frankly, which tells us there's nothing better for you than a few minutes of awe.
It's good for your immune system. It's good for your heart. It's good for your digestion. It's good for your brain. It's good for your sense of self. It's good for your relationships. And I was like, I got to write this book. And so out it came.
Lainie Rowell: Oh, I love it. And I would love for you to share kind of what are some of the big messages you hope people take away from exploring this profound emotion, which I do find it to be a profound emotion.
Dacher Keltner: It is. What are the big lessons? You know, we've studied it for 20 years. Big lesson number one is, it's good for you, and I've already charted that, awe is a feeling you have when you encounter vast mysteries that you don't understand, and it's just good for you.
Lesson number two that surprised me is what I call everyday awe in the book, and why I keep using that word every day, which is, people are finding it two to three times a week, It doesn't take money. It doesn't take a meditation retreat. It doesn't take being in the Grand Canyon. It is everywhere.
And that agrees with a lot of people. Albert Einstein, the feeling of awe or mystery is a fundamental state of the mind or consciousness.
Number three, and I love this about awe, is we find it in the things that make us most human. You know, so when you hear about awe, and I tell you, it's good for your immune system or your heart.
And, and then I tell you like, it's all around us. Then you ask the question, like, where do I get it? You know, and it turns out we've done work in over 25 countries and, you know, people find it in nature. in music, in visual things around you. I'm looking around and I see this old, ceramic plant container shaped like a VW bus.
And I'm like, Oh, that's awesome. We get it in spiritual or contemplative practice in big ideas in thinking about life and also in the moral beauty of other people. You know, when you're just overwhelmed at people's courage and kindness. and Capacity to Overcome Obstacles. It just astonishes us. So it's everywhere, right?
And, and that tells us it's easy to bring into our life, which is true.
Lainie Rowell: I mean, the book is beautiful. One of the things that I love was how you connected awe with restorative justice.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, thank you.
Lainie Rowell: And if you could talk a little bit about that in your work, and I won't do a justice, so I'll let you explain it, but it's also something that we see being used in K 12 and education, so tell us a little bit about that.
Dacher Keltner: Thank you so much, Lainie, you're asking all the life affirming questions. A long time ago, in parts of my career, I studied conflict and negotiations and punishments and started to hear about this concept of restorative justice as an alternative to punitive justice.
And as you know, Lainie, the idea with restorative justice is the perpetrator of harm, be it a young adolescent who steals stuff, or somebody who's hurt somebody physically, or a murderer, somebody at work, right? You, you're caught sexually harassing somebody, or, or etc. The idea of restorative justice is you take responsibility, you acknowledge the harm, you work through it with a person who's been hurt.
And then you try to achieve some reconciliation, the best examples being Rwanda and South Africa, right, the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions. And that's where I got interested in it conceptually, and it actually is an indigenous practice found in most indigenous cultures. It blew me away, just what a counterpoint to how Americans approach justice, which is the eye for an eye justice.
Then I got involved in the prison system. I was brought into a restorative justice program in San Quentin, would go there regularly. I had an awe inspiring moment where I was giving a talk and I asked them what brought these prisoners awe and their answers blew my mind. It was like, light and learning how to read and getting my high school diploma and hugging my granddaughter when she visits, helping young people avoid prison.
Astonishing. And their restorative justice is these guys. This is the most extreme test of it. It's like, they've murdered people. They've done white supremacist acts. They have done gang stuff. They've sexually trafficked people and they want to make amends for their crimes and they want to reach out to their victims and restore things.
And what I've seen in there blows my mind. And it is a great example of moral beauty. Like we all have the capacity for redemption and to find our souls and goodness. And that's what the program does. And every time I go in there, it was almost a spiritual experience to remember what we're capable of as, as humans.
Lainie Rowell: I love that you mentioned the word spiritual because that's one that I think of for awe and for gratitude. And so some people make spiritual about religion and it can be for, and if it is for you, that's wonderful. But if you are not a religious person, you could still access spirituality through awe and gratitude.
I look to you for so many things. And like I said, the Greater Good Science Center has really helped me. One of the most clear connections that I've seen as a practice is, you can call it a savoring walk, or an awe walk, but that idea of getting out into nature and experiencing that awe and gratitude.
And I just wondered if you wanted to share any other examples of maybe the connection between awe and gratitude.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, and I love what you did there, Lainie, which is you said, you know, awe, being blown away by a vast mystery you don't understand. Gratitude, wow, I feel so reverential for things that are given to me, you know, be it by nature, food systems, people, weather, divine forces.
You know, at one level, they're both spiritual, or what we call self transcendent emotions and, no one has studied it scientifically, to your question, but clearly, one of the fascinating things about the transcendent emotions, awe, compassion, gratitude, bliss, joy, is they potentiate each other.
And in a state of awe, what our studies show, people feel more generous, more cooperative, more humble, less self focused. They're more likely to see the humanity in other people and probably gratitude, right? No one's studied that. That'd be a great topic to study. Thank you for the idea. Okay. And, but, you know, in some sense, what unites these emotions is we move away from the ego and self interest into a transcendent relationship to the world of like, I'm part of everybody.
I'm part of nature. I feel grateful for it. I feel awestruck by it. I'm part of this musical tradition that moves me to tears. And a lot of people in the United States think of that as spirituality. Eighty two percent of Americans feel like when I'm just immersed in things that are bigger than me, I think it's divine.
I think it's spirit. And I think we need to be having those conversations in every quarter. It is a human tendency to feel spiritual. It connects to awe and gratitude. So how do we honor that? You know, that was William James's enterprise with his really important book, Varieties of Religious Experience.
Like, we all do it in different ways. For some people, it's yoga. For others, it's, Christian prayer. For others, it's a Muslim tradition. For others, it is a form of Buddhist meditation. And, and all of them involve awe and gratitude, like you're saying. And so maybe these emotions are a way to start bringing together and respecting the religious traditions, which, which we need.
Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. I say this often, I think it's very easy to lead a distracted life.
Dacher Keltner: Yes.
Lainie Rowell: Maybe go further to say, without being super intentional, we are all leading distracted lives.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah.
Lainie Rowell: Because there is just so much that is happening in this time. And we all have the dopamine casino in our pocket. And I worked for Apple for six years. I am not trying to say that devices are evil, but they are programmed in a way to steal our attention. And so we have to be super mindful, super intentional about how can we do that.
And the payoff is so huge in the mental, the physical wellbeing, the relationships, and then this pro social behavior that it promotes. It's just like, wow. For these small but profound practices to have that kind of impact to me gives me a lot of hope because it's not like you need to go off for a week-long retreat or you need to turn your life upside down.
And so that's why I love the work from greater good, and to me, connecting it to the learning communities, because this is the stuff that we want in our learning communities for the adults and the kids, right?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Well, you're an embodiment of what I think we need right now, Lainie, which is, there is this wisdom out there of gratitude and mindfulness and awe and compassion and cooperation and forgiveness. And thank you for asking about restorative justice. It's both documented in the lab, good for you in every way, sharing boosts life expectancy, tight social connections, gives you 10 years of life expectancy, etc.
We know this is true in the ancient wisdom traditions that people need, you know, that we've cited of Buddhism and Taoism and indigenous practices and the like. But we need to get it out into the world, we need it in hospitals and organizations and schools. and the institutions that are doing the hard work, not just retreats, but to put it into a school which is why I built the awe course with Vicky Zakrzewski at Greater Good in Education.
And that's the challenge of our times , and for me, thank you for asking about restorative justice in prison, find the places where you can take these ideas and practices and, where we really need them and, and go after it, you know, and you'll find something really special there.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's generational. So if we don't make that at some point, we're just going to keep repeating the same mistakes. So I think that there's a lot of hope and promise in restorative justice. And of course, I connect it to the work of awe and gratitude.
I'm going to go a little off script here, but I mean, I had like a dozen questions.
I know I won't get to all a dozen, but I did want to ask you a little bit about the podcast, Science of Happiness. Maybe tell us a little bit about it. And then maybe there's a practice that you were surprised by the guest's response, or maybe you tried it and surprised by your response or any of the above.
Dacher Keltner: Oh my God. Yeah. So thank you. At the Greater Good Science Center and in the positive psychology, wellness, contemplative traditions, people were starting to it's been a radical cultural shift. You know, that you're part of Lainie, which is, 30 years ago when I teach medical doctors or judges, which I do a lot of.
For tech people, I'd ask them, How many of you have a breathing practice or a mindfulness practice? And there'd be one woman in the back, like, raising her hand, like, Me! And the rest of the people would be like, What's this Berkeley guy talking about, you know? And now, a lot of people have practices, where they're taking a moment every day, pausing, opening the mind, and trying something.
And what we discovered at the Greater Good Science Center as we studied our audience and the like, is Our work was getting out largely to middle aged people, advanced degrees, doing hard work like you are and it wasn't hitting the youth, and it wasn't getting out as much to people of color, which matters a lot in these times, but podcasts do, and it was this new medium.
So we started a podcast, The Science of Happiness, won a lot of awards with it. Thanks to my producer, Shuka Kalantari. And, and there are two things that we do, which I love. And then I'll answer your question. One is we have people try out a practice, go try the Awe Walk, you know, which is what Pete Docter, the director of Pixar did, and tell us what it was like, go try striking up a conversation with strangers, you know go try giving away things for a day, which led to amazing results.
And now we also have a happiness practice podcast, Happiness Break, but all through PRX. And what we do there, which is really cool, is we just present practices, you know, for six minutes you can listen to a practice. And what we also do is we move into realms that are not really well covered in the mindfulness world.
Like, how do I become happy by listening to music? Mm. How do I practice a form of self soothing touch that Kristin Neff and self compassion encourages. How do I find well being through awe? So, we cover a lot of those, and it's been life changing for me to host it. You know, Lainie, we've hosted Prisoners, and Sona Jobarteh, this incredible musician, and judges, and, people in tech like Evan Sharp at Pinterest and school kids and high schoolers and teachers and nurses and doctors and during the pandemic, you know all kinds of people in the spirit of American democracy, not just teachers or contemplative practitioners, but people and I learned so much. One of my favorite episodes or practices you know, it blew me away, which was, there's this Columbia clinician at Columbia University who is teaching Taoist approaches to stress. Wu Wei approaches. Wu Wei is let things unfold.
Follow them. Don't try to control them, even if they're hard. See where they take you. In some sense, that's what Inside Out 2 is about. And her practice, like as I walked through it with her, it literally changed my life. I was like, thanks, you know, this is, thanks for doing this, you know. So how to bring these practices with this new format to people.
And it's been remarkable to see what it does for people.
Lainie Rowell: One of the things that I try to do with my work on gratitude and really any work in education or with adults in a corporate setting or whatever, is we know this thing is good.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah.
Lainie Rowell: But there's more than one way to do it.
Dacher Keltner: Exactly.
Lainie Rowell: And I think when we give people that choice. And so what I love with the podcast and with greater good in action and the greater good for education is we can invite people to this. We're not mandating it. We're inviting you to this. And if it doesn't work for you, or maybe it doesn't work for you right now, you can come back to it later.
You can try something different. And I think that when you've got this timeless wisdom backed by science, oh, and there's more innovative ways to get it to people and for people to actually do the practices I think we start to reach, like, you've done so well throughout all of your work from the to work at the university, to Greater Good, to inside out, , we're gonna get it to more people, and they're gonna do it in a way that works for them.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, and I love what you said, and it's actually a fundamental point in this literature for people to really appreciate, which is to invite in, you know, happiness is complicated, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of pathways to it, right? We all come from it, to it from different cultures and genetic legacies and family backgrounds.
And you don't want to prescribe things, you don't want to force it on people, you want to invite, and in fact there are data showing that will, could misfire. And you want to invite people in, and I think what we do with the show, and with Greater Good in Action, it's like, see what works for you, you know?
And so for some people it's awe, and for other people it's, awe is weird, and, and they like positive mindsets. And for other people it's Deep Meditation. And, so I think we honor the diversity of the world in the offerings and then the podcast especially really brings in new voices, the practitioners like Dr. Urius Salidwin, who's from Mexico and indigenous and really a pioneer in the study of indigenous contemplative approaches, which are different. And she taught me, as an example, like when you do a body scan, which I love, and I've taught for 10 years, you start, you breathe, you think of the different parts of your body, she's like, before you do that, remember that you're standing on the earth, and ground yourself in the earth and all that it gives you, and how reverential we can be, and the minute I heard that, I was like, wow, what an insight that only the podcast, getting other cultures in, would bring to us.
And so it's, it's been a great vehicle for that effort.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I have to say, I do listen to the podcast regularly that doesn't keep me from being a skeptic sometimes. So one of the recent episodes had a title that was bird song. And I'm like, I'm like, what is this going to be about? But I have so much faith in you and the greater good sides that are.
I'm like, I'm going to listen to this. And then I'm like 30 seconds into hearing more about it. I'm like, Oh, this is right. This is right.
Dacher Keltner: And that's where the podcast form is different in some sense than writing where it allows you to do some stuff. That's a little bit more experimental. Listening to bird song is good for you.
Listening to moving water is good for you. So we can do stranger stuff on the cutting edge of the wellbeing space. And then also the skepticism. And, you know, again, such a keyword, Lainie, like some of our guests struggle with the practice and it backfires. And they're like, you know, I tried this three good things practice and man, I started thinking about the racism of our world and, and I couldn't get to gratitude and that's our world, right? And that's part of the purpose of contemplation is to see what the mind is saying about the world right now and to honor that. So yeah, skepticism is part of it, although I tend to advocate.
And also the complexities of the practices too, of where we really struggle.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, well that's where that's nuances too, because I would consider myself on the advocate side too. It's just, there's sometimes an initial response that's like, I don't know about this one. I go, wow, that's amazing. They got me again?
I Know I need to wrap up here, but, is there one more thing that you want to share that maybe you haven't shared before, or you can't share enough, you want to scream it from the rooftops, just one last message?
Dacher Keltner: I guess the message is about awe, we're in an era of anxiety, and also an era of meaning. You know, which is different than just feeling good. It's like, what's my point in life? What's my purpose? Awe gives it to you, as you said, Lainie. And I'm really overwhelmed that the Awe book has led to initiatives of promoting awe in palliative care, in schools, in hospitals.
There is likely a Jim Henson's show coming out in national parks. And so that begs the question of what can we do and guided by the science and practice and wisdom about awe, in our daily lives. And it's really simple, which we tested with the awe book, like just pause. wonder.
Think about what is mysterious and grand around you. Usually there's something there, you know, when you're eating something, think about where it comes from and all the amazing work that went into it. And then, remember those, what I call the eight wonders that are, that are so important to us as humans of music and moral beauty and nature and visual design and, and the like collective movement and just, and pursue them.
And I'm very excited next week, I'm going to give a talk on cities of awe, which I've started to promote about how we just can build this into our lives again and, and really curtail the anxiety and greed and consumerism of our time. So I hope some listeners out there will take interest in it and put it into practice in their own lives.
Lainie Rowell: And I just want to make one more quick connection to awe and gratitude in that when you're talking about, being aware and allowing yourself to feel that awe when you're consuming a meal, it's like on the other side of that is there someone you could thank for that meal?
Maybe it's the person who prepared the meal. Maybe it's going online and doing a review because you were at a restaurant. I'm always seeing how that connects to gratitude.
Dacher Keltner: Yep.
Lainie Rowell: So I definitely want people to check out the book. I mean, you've written multiple books.
I'm going to put a link to see all of your books in the show notes. And just if you could out loud, how can people stay connected to you? And I'll make sure and put links in the show notes.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, you can stay connected most importantly by greatergood.berkeley.edu. That's the Greater Good Science Center's website. And then the podcast, Science of Happiness. You know, we put something out every week and we're really proud of it. And it is a conversation that we are having with a lot of people.
Lainie Rowell: And I encourage you all to check out the book, Awe the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life.
Dacher, this has been a joy for me. I mean, you've made my day, my week, my month, my year. I'm, I'm so thankful for this time and really just thank you to you and the team at Greater Good Science Center for all the wonderful things you're putting out there.
Dacher Keltner: Thank you, Lainie. It's been an amazing conversation and thanks for surfacing so many things that I care a lot about.
Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that. Thank you all for listening.
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