Shownotes:
Ever feel like your brain is constantly scanning for danger, even when there’s no real threat? You’re not alone. Kimberley Quinlan is here to explain why our minds default to a just-in-case mode—always bracing for the worst—and what we can do to break the cycle.
In this episode, we’re diving into anxiety, self-compassion, and the power of rewiring our response to fear. Kimberley, a leading therapist and host of Your Anxiety Toolkit, shares game-changing insights on how to stop fighting panic, reframe intrusive thoughts, and create a kinder, more resilient mindset.
If anxiety has ever held you back, this is the episode you didn’t know you needed.
Thrive Global Article:
About Our Guest:
Kimberley Quinlan is a licensed marriage and family therapist, founder of CBTschool.com, and host of the Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast. With extensive training in evidence-based therapies such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Exposure Response Prevention (ERP), Kimberley specializes in treating OCD, anxiety, eating disorders, and body-focused repetitive behaviors. Her expertise has been featured in the Los Angeles Times, Wall Street Journal, ABC’s 20/20, Telemundo, and more.
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Instagram - @LainieRowell
LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
Lainie Rowell: Welcome, Kimberly. Thanks for being here.
Kimberley Quinlan: Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
Lainie Rowell: I'm just so excited to talk about, I mean, I'll frankly talk about anything with you, but there's so much stuff that I want to talk about to do with self compassion and anxiety.
And, I know you're a podcaster because I listened to your podcast. I've heard you on other people's podcasts. And one of the things that has always struck me is that You see self compassion in places that maybe other people don't. Like, I just think the way that you see self compassion is really beautiful, and I'd love for you to actually just define what is self compassion.
What does that look like?
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, it's going to be different for different people. In general, it's the the wish to be well and happy and to have less suffering. Another way of describing it is being a safe place to feel any emotion and be going through any discomfort and doing that in a way in which is kind and gentle.
And the main piece to think this whole concept of self compassion is the act of self compassion is something we do that serves both the short term and the long term us. Sometimes people misunderstand it as just doing the easy, nice thing, but it's not self compassion isn't just unicorns and bubble baths and candles.
It's not that it can be, but it's. actually also involves being brave and courageous and standing tall when things get really hard.
Lainie Rowell: So if I'm hearing it right, it's that being kind to yourself, but it's also you have to do the work to make sure that you're not only kind to yourself in the short term, but the long term.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. And it's, it's multifaceted. So self compassion could be In the form of words and using kind words, it could be in the form of kind behaviors and doing kind things. It could be in the form of the tone of voice in which you use towards yourself. It could be also facing fears and, and having to muscle through really difficult things as we navigate adversity and hard things so that it can show up in many forms depending on what you're facing.
Lainie Rowell: I focus on gratitude. That's something I write about and speak about a lot. And I see this connection between gratitude and self compassion is that they can both be sometimes dismissed for maybe either being obvious or some might even say woo woo. And I would just love to hear, from your experience as a therapist and a human, like, what do you see people maybe not getting right?
What are the misconceptions about self compassion? You kind of addressed it, but even more, like, what else do you see?
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, and I think that our pop psychology, especially on social media, is, It's very much focused on having less discomfort, right? What's the easiest, like you'll see it everywhere if you're looking for it, like five easy tips to not have to be anxious or how to, you know, there's a lot of this kind of talk on how can we get rid of discomfort fast.
And I think that under that umbrella, we've, we've taken. some of these really important skills like self compassion and gratitude and use them as like immediate fixes for really uncomfortable, painful things that we're going through when it's not. So I'm always very cautious and I always wave caution with my patients and my students.
I'm like, let's not always jump to the fastest solution because that's obviously not. The best for you. Yeah. So that's one thing to think about. And then common myths related to these is that people think, as you said, it's lazy. That self-compassion is just like, ah, you get out of jail, free card.
Or that if I practice kindness, that I'm letting myself off the hook, that I'm going to become somebody who's complacent or out of control or won't have my values as the, the North star, that I'll just sort of become this person who has no motivation and no discipline. These are really common misunderstandings.
And that's why I started with this idea that self compassion isn't that it's actually showing up and doing the hard thing. But doing it gently, doing it without criticism and judgment and, and punishment towards ourselves. Some of the most self compassionate things I have done in my lifetime were some of the hardest things I have done.
But the difference is instead of doing these hard things with a whip going like you idiot, you should be doing this better and faster and it's easier for everybody else. I'm just validating and acknowledging. How hard it is and cheering myself on along the way.
Lainie Rowell: You know, you're talking about self compassion, and then your podcast is Your Anxiety Toolkit. And I've been guilty of this , is to say, I don't want to feel anxious. Or, I don't want to ruminate.
And there's, It's actually a purpose for all the emotions, so I think there's some emotions that get a bad reputation, but they're actually helpful, right?
Kimberley Quinlan: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, there is no bad emotion. There is no bad emotion. There are reactions to the emotion that can either make our lives better or create problems in our lives.
So if we have, let's say, anger and there's nothing wrong with anger, especially as women, like sometimes we kind of feel like we're not supposed to feel rage. We could have rage, there's nothing wrong with rage, but how we respond to that rage, how we show up in the face of that rage can determine what's effective and ineffective for us and our values.
And it's different for everybody, right? That doesn't mean that we can't stand up for ourselves. It doesn't mean that sometimes we have to set boundaries with people. It doesn't mean that we, we can't you know, take care of ourselves, but we're going to do it in this way that's kind and. And like I said this, I'm really interested in this word discipline because discipline isn't bad either.
We've kind of made that into sort of like, it must be punishment, but also self discipline can be a very self compassionate act as well. So going back to what you said about fear, yes. One of the biggest misconceptions about fear is that we should avoid it. I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I have built my entire career around encouraging people to face their fears.
That's literally what I do for a living. Is I spend my day helping people face their 10 out of 10 fear.
Lainie Rowell: So, talk a little bit more about that, and I think it might be helpful, and I'm going back to your podcast, Your anxiety toolkit., and it might be helpful to understand, the difference between, like, everyday anxiety, anxiety disorder a panic attack, like, where's the line?
What's the difference there?
Kimberley Quinlan: Okay, so we have fear. Fear is a normal emotion that shows up when we think we're in danger. We have then sort of the next level of anxiety, which they're pretty much the same, but in different degrees. Anxiety is something that shows up when we're in danger and that we need to remove ourselves from that danger or, you know, solve it in some way.
Because if we don't, there might be grave danger, a bus coming towards you, a lion coming towards you, if you're not feeling really well, let's say you've got a fever, and you're sweating and stuff, a degree of anxiety is normal there, because you have to be able to then go, okay, do I need to get myself to the hospital?
Right? So that is normal. But in today's day, we have sort of shifted, our brains have shifted to a model of not just having anxiety when there is actual danger. It's moved to how can I prevent anything bad from happening. It's sort of what we call the just in case brain and our brains, the more we respond to just in case brain, the more we actually train our brain to constantly be looking for potential danger, not actual danger.
And then what we'll find is you will often end up with an anxiety disorder. And what that means, it's not a negative term. It just means that you're experiencing anxiety to the degree in which it's impacting your functioning and reducing your quality of life. It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong.
Sometimes it's very genetic. Sometimes it can be related to events like the Los Angeles fires that we just had. Like some people will notice that will be the onset of their anxiety disorder. And at that level, we actually Again, it's not that that's a good thing. We actually just want to work to make sure we catch it and treat it as fast as we can so that it doesn't take over your life.
Lainie Rowell: Obviously people should seek help if they're getting to the point where it is impacting their lives. I'm curious, That just in case anxiety. Would that be kind of like catastrophizing?
Like, I'm going to take it to a 10. It's probably a two and I'm going to make it a 10. Right. And it's always interesting that we have to be kind of these risk assessors. And so, like, I have a sick child at home today. Normally, I'd be having this conversation with you when I have two healthy kids off at school.
And I have one home with me today, but as he was like starting to get sick a couple of days ago because the, you know, the temperature is going up. And I need that level of anxiety. Otherwise, I'm just like, go sleep it off, right? Like I need some level of anxiety to be alert enough to be like, okay, well, if this temperature doesn't drop, if these things happen, we need to move to the next level.
Right?
Kimberley Quinlan: Exactly. And that's your brain taking care of itself and being at its highest level of function. But what an anxiety disorder usually looks like is it's 10 steps ahead of where we actually are. So it's like, what if they get sick and they have some terrible disease and they have been to the hospital and, you know, it usually ends with some kind of terrible catastrophe.
So that is the sort of the crux of a disorder and it can branch into different areas of your life. So if it's around social, it would be social anxiety. The disorder, or if it's around health, it might be health anxiety. You know, we have OCD, we have post traumatic stress disorder, we have phobias.
So it can show up in different areas. And under that umbrella are the different anxiety disorders.
Lainie Rowell: And then, for the everyday anxiety, or even to the level of a panic attack , what is your advice to someone who has experienced panic attacks?
What would you say? They should be thinking about, thinking there might be another one.
Kimberley Quinlan: Sure. So number one, panic attack is what we would call a 10 out of 10 anxiety. It's terrifying. As someone who's had panic many times, it's no fun. So first of all, I would validate you, like this is not in your head.
This is really painful. Panic attacks are really, really distressing. Now, that being said. at the very same time, while it feels very, very scary and feels very, very dangerous and feels like you might die, they're also not dangerous. A panic attack is not a dangerous thing. There is actually nothing to be afraid of, except, you know, it's uncomfortable.
And so in that case, what we would do is I work with my patients and my students at allowing it to rise and fall on its own because it will. It is not permanent. And in fact, we know that what you resist persists. So the more you try and avoid a panic attack, the more likely you are to have one. Now, that's not to say that you need to go and do the 10 out of 10 scariest thing to practice having panic.
While I'm not opposed to that, I don't think that's what you need to do immediately. So we could put this in practice as, as you start to notice a panic attack, your job is to just stay present and nonjudgmental about it and allow it to rise and fall on its own. For those who have panic disorder. And are engaging in a lot of avoidant behaviors, trying to avoid a panic, then yes, we would practice facing the things that tend to trigger panic.
A common one is flying, going to the doctors, getting needles being in small enclosed places, going into social settings and being willing to have panic attack. And while using these skills, especially self compassion as, as they come and go.
Lainie Rowell: And so trying to fight it, is it fair to say that's super counterproductive?
Kimberley Quinlan: Well, again, your attempt to fight it is only probably making it worse. Remember, your brain is constantly assessing for danger. So if you're in a situation where, let's say you're panicking, and your response to the panic is, Oh, no, this is terrible. It shouldn't be here. Your brain is basically being trained to continue to interpret these panic symptoms as dangerous. So, the clients of mine who really recover from panic disorder are the ones who are like, Mm hmm, yep, I'm gonna have a panic attack right now, and I'm just gonna let it, and I'm gonna go to the supermarket, and I'm gonna get my groceries, and we're gonna go panic together while we get the groceries.
They're the ones who recover the most, and who have the most long term recovery.
Lainie Rowell: I'd love for you to share a very specific strategy, the compassion sandwich. Can you tell us about that?
Kimberley Quinlan: Well, this is specific. So this is actually It sounds silly, this compassion sandwich, but it was specific to, I, I wrote a book for New Harbinger Publications for OCD. It's one of the conditions that I specialized.
And one of the gold standard treatments for OCD and all anxiety disorders in this case is, to face your fear, right? So whatever you're afraid of doing, you face your fear while not engaging in any behavior to try and reduce or remove your discomfort. So example might be you have a doctor's appointment, you've got a lot of anxiety about it, you would go to the doctor's appointment.
It's not, just going to the doctor isn't enough, we actually want to marry it with also not engaging in rumination. In catastrophization, in a ton of reassurance seeking, or any of those additional behaviors that we tend, a lot of Googling, because none of those are helpful. So we would go to the doctor and we would tell the doctor the symptoms, but we also would practice not engaging in those behaviors.
A compassion sandwich is practicing that. That's the meat and cheese of the sandwich. That's the good stuff. That's where you really can recover from. almost any anxiety disorder. But the bread that goes around the meat and the cheese is that compassion. Is, as you go into doing the hard thing, and this could be also something you apply if you have a job interview, right?
Or you are going on a podcast, or you are taking your kid to school for the first day and you're so anxious. The, the thing that you're doing that's is the meat and cheese. But the compassion is how you tend to yourself and how you cope in a kind, compassionate way as you anticipate doing the hard thing.
And you would practice it while you do the hard thing, right? And after you've done the hard thing, you would be as kind and celebratory as possible. Often what happens is when we face hard things. Instead of celebrating, we go, that was dumb. It shouldn't have been that hard. Or why is that so hard for me?
It wasn't hard for them. What's wrong with me? And I want to sort of remind people that if it's hard for you, celebrate that you did a hard thing. So that's the sandwich concept is making sure you commit to kindness at the before, the during, and the after.
Lainie Rowell: I think it's very, very helpful. And I think it takes obviously intention to really be thinking about how can I be compassionate to myself before during and after and it gives us that mental construct to help us when we're in those situations. Now, you are an incredible podcast host. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and how that all started and how it's going? Like over 400 episodes, if I'm not mistaken.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, yeah. So I started my private practice and I was thinking like, how am I going to market this and how can I serve people?
I was working in the specialty of OCD and anxiety. And at that time, this was like let me see, nearly 10 years ago where, you know, Instagram and all that wasn't as big either. And so few people had access to the proper treatment for these conditions. And so I was getting, you know, calls from people all the time.
So I sort of started as a way to help people who don't have access to these specific treatments. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that I would get to 400 episodes and to have had some amazing guests and make such an impact. But it's my favorite thing. In fact, it's something I'm doubling down on this year just because of all the platforms, podcasting is my favorite.
Lainie Rowell: It's my favorite too, because I get to have conversations with people like you, and I know you, you've had some really, I mean, I think all of your interviews have been fun, I'm sure, but I, I know you got to interview Tara Brock, like, was that amazing? For those radical acceptance, for those who are not familiar.
Kimberley Quinlan: Career highlight to this day.
Lainie Rowell: And can I say, that was episode 60 something. That was pretty early on. Was this just a swing for the fences kind of moment?
Kimberley Quinlan: Literally, spaghetti on the wall. Still can't believe it. And then, I mean, and then she endorsed, she wrote an endorsement for my book, which was like so exciting, but yes, it was, I was traveling to DC for a conference, I literally wrote her an email and I said, I will literally take five minutes of your time if you have it.
And I will write a donation, a check for a donation for the insight meditation center. Like it was, and I never dreamed. And then she was like, no, totally come down. And we sat and we chatted and I got about 20 minutes of her time. We had a hug. It was the best.
Lainie Rowell: It's so lovely. And that's I've been able to to meet some of my heroes through podcasting.
And it is this very lovely thing. I mean, they say don't meet your heroes. But actually, every one that I have met has been a complete delight. And so maybe if they wouldn't have been they would have said no. But regardless, they've all been so lovely. And I was listening to that episode. And I was just I was having this vicarious gratitude, like, I was so happy for you that you got to do it, and then, and then I saw you had your husband on, and What are some of the other episodes that maybe people who haven't listened yet would, would enjoy?
Kimberley Quinlan: Mm. I'm such a self compassion nerd or, you know, lover. I've had Kristen Neff and Christopher Germer and Paul Gilbert, like the three most incredible self compassion. Dennis Turch, all really great educators in the self compassion field. My husband was one of my favorites. I recently just recorded one of my husband interviewing me and that was really beautiful to you know, I can't even say like just so many beautiful people.
And, and as much of those people, it's also the people who are my students who come on and share their story of overcoming an anxiety disorder. All right. I mean, I don't get that same like, Oh my God, I get to sit with this person, but I do get this deep gratitude of like, Wow, these people are. You know, on the ground changing their lives and that's makes such a huge impact to the world that they've gotten through this and got their life back.
So it's pretty special.
Lainie Rowell: That's amazing. And I have to say, I love the solo episodes too, because I feel like you're just talking to me and that's pretty lovely as well. So I hope everyone will check out the anxiety toolkit because I think that's a lovely resource. What's the thing you want to shout from the rooftops or, or something you want to share that you haven't shared before?
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, it's funny. It's something I was just speaking on social media about this morning.
And every time I talk about this, I get such a response, which is this. Life is hard for everybody. There's no getting around that. But for those who make a commitment to being kind to themselves, They suffer less. So in a world where we keep getting fed that You know, like I said, the five tips to make panic go away fast or the 17 steps to, you know, it's never 17.
It's like the two step formula to not having depression or whatever you see. And I love that. I get it that people want fast solutions. But if I can convince you of one thing, it's that you will suffer less if you are kind to yourself. It is that usually the quick fixes don't last and they don't have any long term benefit.
But if you can learn to be that kind voice towards yourself and you're committed to that, even on days when things are so upside down, you will suffer less. And I think that That is a shift. If we could make that shift, the world would be an easier place to be in and we would be kinder to each other and we wouldn't suffer nearly as much as we do.
So that's sort of my big main goal for this year is to really get people on board and help them to understand that self criticism and self punishment only creates more suffering for you. It triggers your nervous system to having more cortisol and adrenaline. It creates more stress in your body. And so let's go, let's really come together and make it a kinder place in your head.
Lainie Rowell: A kinder place in your head, that is well said. And I go back to something that you said earlier about, you know, how we're training our brain and how can we do the consistent work to suffer less versus trying to do something right now that is not going to have the long term impact that we're looking for.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. More often than not, we are trying to get short term relief and that often doesn't serve the long term. Yeah. And so everyone needs to just do a little bit of an analysis in like, is this helping the long term me? Or will this help the one year me? And that, that question and that conversation we have with ourselves can often lead us to much more compassionate, more effective action.
Lainie Rowell: I love the idea of thinking about what can I do for one year from now me versus just trying to make it easier right this moment. I think that's amazing. Kimberly, I have so loved talking to you. I would love it if you just shared how people can stay connected to you. And, did I hear you say something about another book in the works?
Is there one?
Kimberley Quinlan: Yes. So
Lainie Rowell: I can cut this out if you don't want to talk about it because I know sometimes it's like, do you want the commitment device of publicly talking about it or do you want to wait? Like it's up to you.
Kimberley Quinlan: No, no, it's fine. So I have a podcast called Your Anxiety Toolkit. You can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts.
I'm also on Instagram at Your Anxiety Toolkit. I have an online education platform called CBTSchool.com. CBT, like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy dot com. So that is there as well. I have a book for people with OCD called The Self Compassion Workbook for OCD. And I'm in the early stages and you know, letting it flow out of me stage of writing the second book, which is a self compassion book for everybody.
But what I want it to be is more of like a street version of that, like a little bit more sassy and to the point and a little bit of a punch because most of the self compassion ones are very like, Zen, and I love that, but I feel like, some people don't resonate with that. So I want this to be a little spicier.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. So my most recent publication is a gratitude journal. It's called Bold Gratitude. And I wrote it and my partner on that is this amazing creative. She's brilliant. And when we were doing it and I'm like, we need to make it accessible to everyone.
And she's like, I want you to write it like fun Lainie Yeah. I knew exactly what she meant. Yeah. And I was like, fun Lainie is writing this journal and so, and so I can't wait to read the next thing that's coming from you and maybe you'll come back and talk to us about it. That would be amazing.
Kimberly, thank you again for being here and thank you all for listening.
Kimberley Quinlan: Thank you. I'm so grateful. It's been so fun.
Lainie Rowell: We'll do it again.