Shownotes:
Let's discuss the power of gratitude and its impact on leadership and education! In this episode, we dive into the concept of being teacher-centered in order to create a positive and supportive environment for students. Chris shares his journey of discovering the importance of supporting, engaging, and empowering teachers, and how it led him to write his book, "SEEing to Lead." With anecdotes and insights, we explore the significance of gratitude in daily life and its transformative effects. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that will leave you feeling grateful and motivated to make a positive difference in the world.
About Our Guest:
Dr. Chris Jones has been an educator in Massachusetts for 22 years. Chris is currently the Vice President of the Massachusetts State Administrators Association (MSAA). He is the author of SEEingtoLead, a book that provides strategies for how modern leaders can and must support, engage, and empower their teachers to elevate student success. He also hosts a podcast of the same name to amplify teachers’ voices in an effort to improve education as a whole. Most recently, Chris was named the 2022 Massachusetts School Counselors Association's (MASCA) Administrator of the Year.
Website: teamjonesedu.com
Newsletter: sendfox.com/DrCSJones
Twitter: @DrCSJones
linkedIn: @drcsjones
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is an educator, international consultant, podcaster, and TEDx speaker. She is the lead author of Evolving Learner and a contributing author of Because of a Teacher. Her latest book, Evolving with Gratitude, was just released. An experienced teacher and district leader, her expertise includes learner-driven design, community building, online/blended learning, and professional learning. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Twitter - @LainieRowell
Instagram - @LainieRowell
Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available here! And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!
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Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP!
Transcript:
Lainie Rowell: [00:00:00] Welcome, my friends. I am so excited to have Dr. Chris Jones on the pod. Welcome, Chris.
Chris Jones: Hi, how are you?
Lainie Rowell: I'm doing better now that I get to talk to you and I'm very excited. Happy Summer. We're recording this towards the end of June, and so I'm guessing you're on maybe a quiet campus.
Chris Jones: Yeah, it's, it's pretty quiet and I'm, I'm really happy to be talking to you because I love the stuff you put out and I'm really happy for it.
So I'm excited to have a, a conversation about gratitude with you, but this is a good time because the campus is quiet and we can always tend to focus a little more on what we need to when, when things slow down a little bit.
Lainie Rowell: Yes. And I should mention that you are a high school principal, so slowing down is something that does not happen often for you.
So I think we had some good timing getting you on the pod.
Chris Jones: Yes. No, it doesn't happen often, so I, I take advantage of it every chance I get. I don't have to work as long a days and I get more done. Go figure.
Lainie Rowell: .Well, I do want to back up a little bit cuz I just get so excited to talk to you.
I'm like already in it, but I do wanna back up a little bit and give you a little more of a formal introduction, which listeners of the show know, I can't do even when I try. But I am gonna make an honest effort here. Because I am a fan of you and the work that you put out there, and I wanna make sure people know at least some of the, the credentials as we go in here.
So, as I mentioned, you are a high school principal. Dr. Chris Jones is also the president-elect of Massachusetts State Administrators Association, M S A A. And he is an amazing author. He is the author of SEEing to Lead and I hope he will talk about that because this is a very important book and I mean, he's also a podcast host.
Oh my goodness. The like Cardinal Sin, of podcast host is to not acknowledge the podcast status of someone else. So I want to make sure and say he is also an amazing podcast host. I have had the pleasure of being on his podcast. So, with that, Chris, is there anything else you wanna add? Because I, I barely scratched the surface on your credentials.
Chris Jones: No, I, you know what? I think you covered it. I appreciate you saying those kind words about the book. I, that was kind of a a long coming idea wise, but quick product that I put out through a process of a lot of caring, I think. So that's why it's good that we're talking about gratitude. And the podcast, it's funny, people ask me what came first, kinda like a chicken or the egg thing, because they're of the same name and the idea of the book and the beginning of the writing of the book came before the podcast.
But so yes, that's, that's the official answer that I'm, I'm gonna stick with
Lainie Rowell: You stick with that. I mean, yes, that does, that does come up sometimes. And we both have books and podcasts with the same name, and they, they feed each other. I, I find for me, right.
Chris Jones: Absolutely. So I don't wanna say we're twinning, but we might be twinning.
Lainie Rowell: I'll go with twining. I'm up for that. Well, I'm gonna ask you the quintessential first question. I don't even know if that's the right use of the word quintessential. I'm gonna ask you the typical first question and then I'm gonna ask you to dig deep in, and I don't think I even mentioned this, but let me, lemme make sure and point this out, that you were actually named as Administrator of the Year by Massachusetts School Counselors Association.
Yeah, I don't wanna leave that off, so congratulations on that.
Chris Jones: Thank you very much. That's funny. I forgot all about that, but yes I was named that, that was, that was quite the honor because when I received that award, it was my director of counseling that was saying all, you know, you get these awards and they say all these things about you.
And I think it was my mother, it was a virtual event and my mother had logged on to watch this virtual event. And I think my sister did too, and I got a text from my sister right afterwards and she said, so how much did you pay that lady?
Lainie Rowell: Generous introduction. Check is in the mail. Yeah. Nope, they did it because you're amazing and you're also humble because you didn't even think to throw it out there.
And as a podcast host, I should have said it first, but at least I recovered. I'm gonna give myself, points for recovery there. So yes, absolutely. So many accolades, so much great work. So let's go at that first question, what does gratitude mean to you? No right or wrong answers, and then we'll get into some of your work.
Chris Jones: Sure. Boy, no right or wrong answers. You really took the pressure off. That's what we should do in all schools. Gratitude to me is it goes beyond the glass is half full type of thing. I, I like to dig a little deeper into, it's not whether the glass is half full. It's not whether the glass is half empty.
It's the idea that I have a glass to put anything in to begin with. So it's a step back to look at the bigger picture. Driven by the question of what do I have rather than what do I want? And so what I mean by that is, you know, quite often we get caught up in, oh, if only I had this, or I wish I had that.
When we do that we skip the idea of what we actually do have as simple as. I wake up in the morning because I had a good night's sleep in a bed, in a warm bed. And I can go downstairs and pour myself a coffee.
And I think of how many people don't even get to start their day that way, and how many people don't get to start their day that way, whether it's because of an economic issue, whether it's because of a health issue you know, the idea that I can. I can lay my head down at night in comfort, get a good night's sleep, and get up in the morning to repeat and to take another run at it for another day, is what I see as gratitude.
Lainie Rowell: I love that idea of stepping back at the bigger picture and when you are describing what it means to you, you're talking in a way that I think is so essential where you're really thinking about very specific examples of things, not so general, like, I'm grateful for my health. You're thinking about very, very specific things and I think that if I, if I understood you correctly, you're getting down to like the very, very basics in very specific ways.
Chris Jones: 100%. And you know, that wasn't something I always did. That became an acquired thing because I did a gratitude exercise each night and each morning. So I would try to come up with three to five things I was grateful for every single morning. And at first, you know, like the first morning you're like, yeah, I'm grateful, like you said, for my health.
I'm grateful cuz it's a nice day out and you know, I'm grateful for whatever. And then the next morning you wake up and you kind of do the same thing. You dance around it, but then you start to run out of things because you don't wanna keep repeating 'em or else they have less meaning. And so what do you do on the day that you get up and you have a cold and it's, you know, it's four degrees out and there's knee deep snow on the ground that you gotta go outside and shovel, shovel before you go to work.
So you really have to get specific about those things. So it's that challenge each day that made me look more. I was gonna say specificity, but I don't even know if that's the right word. You were talking about quintessential before. But to look at more specific things. And when you do that, I think it really helps you embrace gratitude to a point where it almost becomes second nature in the bigger picture, daily operations of your life.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I like the way Dr. Robert Emmons describes it. He goes, you can feel Gratitude. It's this feeling that you're having, but emotions are fleeting versus I am a grateful person. So there's, I feel grateful versus I am a grateful person. And so I think what I hear you saying is that through these practices and over time, you have moved into being, I am a grateful person.
Chris Jones: Yes. And I'm glad you made that distinction. I think that's an important distinction and it's, it's not something that you start to feel that way and you're there no more work. It's something that you need to continually remind yourself of. And if you truly are to become a grateful person, I think there's a lot of work on the backend that you have to identify specifically what you're grateful for, because.
It's almost like a boomerang. So you start off big, you get specific to make sure that you're actually becoming that grateful person, and once you become that grateful person, it's like a world opens up where it's very hard not to be grateful for just about everything. So it almost goes back out to that big picture once you get it tight again.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, . That's a great description. I wanna make sure we get a chance to spend a good amount of time talking about your book. And by the way, I know I said the title Seeing to Lead, but the S.E.E. Is all capitals.
Can you tell us why?
Chris Jones: Sure. It stands for Support, Engage, and Empower and that in, in and of itself, when you mention the idea of gratitude, a lot of that just has to do with gratitude of the people I serve as their leader. When I'm supporting somebody, I'm grateful that they're there and grateful that they're, they're looking to be supported and looking to improve when I'm engaging them.
Engagement comes from my outwardly showing of my gratitude for them, and then because it's about value added. And then the empowerment part. I'm grateful that they've taken a step forward into a role of leadership where now they're branching out on their own, and I'm grateful that they're doing that because then I don't need to look at minuscule things based on trust and the, the understanding that they're there.
Lainie Rowell: Beautiful. Tell us how did you come to write this book? Like what was the journey? How did you come to, to get this framework that you wanted to put out there and share with the world.
Chris Jones: Yeah. It's it, and it, it definitely, it's a framework because it's a, it's built like a flywheel. And the whole idea of the framework is to get that flywheel spinning as fast as possible on its own. So the idea is, and I'm gonna say something that I get so many crazy looks from people when I'm sitting around in a conference.
Lainie Rowell: You've got my attention. I cannot wait. Go
Chris Jones: Lay that one out, Chris. I'm a teacher-centered principal. I'm not a student-centered principal. I'm a teacher-centered principal, and people look at me and it's almost like, oh dear, you can't say that as a principal, you need to be student-centered. Well, I. I look at where my leverage point comes from, where I can get the most leverage, and what's that big domino I can push over.
Now, if I can engage teachers and empower them in their classrooms to where they like coming to work. They're not ruining their whole Sunday afternoon because it's one o'clock and they're thinking about work the next day, but Sunday evening, they're like, oh yeah, I work tomorrow.
If I get teachers who are passionate about what they're doing in front of students and they're supported and they're engaged in the process, there's no way the students don't benefit much more on a larger scale than I could ever do on my own. So the teachers are really the center of my focus. Obviously student achievement, student environment, things like that are important, but I gain in that by taking care of the teachers.
The process was, and I lay this out in the book as for the longest time I sat in school, I did not have a great school experience and I sat in school with a chip on my shoulder thinking there's gotta be a better way to do this. Which then eventually, after iteration, after iteration, after iteration, led to my personal mission.
My why, if you wanna call it that, if you wanna use that word, but it's to make a better educational experience for everyone involved by being purposeful, acting with integrity and building character. And so that's, that's why my weekly videos are about that. But the book really, I came to realize somewhere in my educational career, and I wish I could remember where that I was blaming the wrong people.
I was blaming the teachers for the bad experience until I realized that teachers were acting in the box, that they were kept in by strict rules and not being supported, rather having expectations. And not receiving any help or engagement with those expectations. They didn't have a voice or anything like that they were just told to do.
And so of course, they stayed within their box. They didn't branch out, which led to a very disengaged student by the name of Chris Jones. And so as I started to look at it, I first gave a presentation on this. I, I can't remember what year, but I gave a presentation on it. At N A S S P, their national conference when I was playing with this and putting it around and and talked about supporting, engaging and empowering staff.
And then as I was writing these things down and putting the presentation together, I noticed I had three chunks that I could use. And that's what the book ended up being. I, I worked through the support piece and to help people with that I put in the strategies I use, I put in reflection points in the book.
It's not just a read through in you're done book or read through and highlight. Obviously if you wanna highlight, great. But it gives you strategies that you can do. It gives you questions to answer, and then it gives you the strategies I use in the different areas. And I do the same for the Engage and the Empower piece.
I really noticed it because in those weekly videos, which is why I mentioned 'em earlier, I started talking about these things and I started talking about how to support people better, how to engage people better, and how to empower them better. And then it just, I put the pen to paper. And ended up getting a book deal and writing a book.
Lainie Rowell: I wanna clarify something because here's what I heard. I heard you say it's not that student-centered isn't something that you believe in...
Chris Jones: Correct.
Lainie Rowell: You believe in student-centered. But if I'm understanding you, you are saying, I know that my role as an administrator is to be teacher-centered.
Is that fair to say?
Chris Jones: That's accurate. That's a hundred percent accurate. See, the student-centered, that's the teachers. The teachers are student-centered. I expect every single one of my teachers to be student-centered. They are part of the larger culture and organization. Yes. But I almost view it as if you keep going up steps, the teachers are my students.
So I need to be teacher-centered.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I think this is something that anyone who's considering leaving the classroom needs to go in with full awareness that when you step out of being rostered kids, being their teacher, your direct impact is not likely going to be the student. It will most likely be the adults and their direct impact will be the students.
I think that's something that can be quite jarring at first when people move out of the classroom into whether it's a instructional coaching position administrative position, whatever it is, you need to understand that your direct impact, most likely. I don't wanna speak in absolutes cuz there are other positions out there that I may not know about, but most of the positions I see where people step out of the classroom, their direct impact has to do with adults.
Chris Jones: Correct. That's your direct impact. If you want to impact students, you have to impact the adults because you're talking adults that depending on what school you're in, have anywhere from 20 to 30 kids in their classroom. If you're in a high school, let's say average 25 kids in their classroom, five or six periods a day, So think of that number of students compared to how many I can meet with in the morning to see how school's going.
I can schedule meetings with, I can never meet anywhere near that many students. And so if I want to have the largest impact, I have to impact those that I can get to a position where they're leading on their own, where they're empowered, they're fully engaged in the vision of the school and making it really happen for the students.
Lainie Rowell: It's an equally important thing, but it's a shift because like you said, it doesn't mean that there's no direct impact on students. You're still doing things that impact the climate, the culture on the campus, all of those things. But it is, you now need to pay attention to those adults who ultimately are gonna have the most contact with those kids.
Chris Jones: Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm, I'm involved with the kids. All the, I look, you wanna talk about Gratitude? That's one of the things that I'm, I'm most grateful for is the ability to interact with students when I want to interact with students. Yeah. By going into classrooms. I, I'm in classrooms all the time. And I have a feedback system with that, that I, I cover in the book, but the better idea of that is to be able to interact with the students. Like I'm out at arrival every morning for bus duty and we've got the music blaring and I'm out there greeting all the students that get dropped off and get dropped off with the bus. The best part about that is I'm out there with my assistant superintendent.
My assistant superintendent comes out and we play music and talk and we were gonna do a presentation on it called B D P D, Bus Duty Professional Development cuz we solve the problems of the world while we're standing out there. But Interacting with the kids, having fun with the kids. And then on Wednesdays, I do welcome sign Wednesdays with my positive affirmation signs that we take pictures.
And so, you know, when I, when I walk around the school and people know me or, or they're saying hi to me without being prompted or anything like that in the hallways, or, Hey, Dr. Jones, you know, or call me over to their lunch tables when I'm in the cafeteria. That's, that's what it's about. That's, that's what I'm grateful for, is the ability to walk around and do that.
Lainie Rowell: I would describe what you are describing as a form of temptation bundling. Are you familiar with this idea?
Chris Jones: No.
Lainie Rowell: So the idea of temptation bundling is to take one thing that you need to do, but maybe are not super excited about, and you bundle it with something that you cannot wait to do. So what I heard was, Bus duty pd, BDPD.
Right? So you need to be out there for security's sake. And it's not that you don't want that, but it's just like, bus duty on its own is not going to get you out of bed. But the fact that you get to have, these conversations that are your professional learning with your assistant sup, like that's amazing.
That's temptation bundling to me. You've found a way to combine the two things, you know, one that needs to happen with one thing, you can't wait to happen.
Chris Jones: Yeah, no, that's excellent. I had never heard of that before. And it's funny because you say that about B D P D and it, as we get close to the year, people will drive by and parents will roll down their windows and bus drivers were, they're like, you're almost there.
Cuz we stand out there in rain, snow, like we're a mess half the year. And it's funny cuz I'll be coming into work and I'm blah another workday, you know? Okay. It's a job and I don't not like my job. I love my job as a principal, but one of those days, it's just a blah day man, I'll get to bus duty and saying hi to the kids and good morning to the kids and all that, and listen to the music and, and I'm in such a good mood to start the day.
Lainie Rowell: I think that's such a great strategy and for principals in general, you know, it's, it's hard. There's sometimes you have to go into the office and close the door and do the budget stuff, do the compliance stuff that is just a part of the job that you're not super psyched about, but, It has to happen.
And when you can combine these things where you're visible, you're out there supporting the kids, keeping them safe, and you're getting to interact with your peers, that's, that's a, that's a win-win. I will say that my children, the elementary school that my kids go to, that principal is out there every morning.
As a parent, it brings me so much peace and joy. I see her, she's here making sure everyone's safe. I know mentally, I know intellectually, I know that that's what a principal does is one of their millions of jobs. But just to have that visibility of her, like she's on campus, she's keeping them safe.
It means a lot. She's greeting them. It's like she's loving it. I'm loving it. The kids are loving it. And we have good weather here in Southern California, so that's, that's a bonus for her and for any of the principals who are in this area. But the fact that you're, you're doing it Rain, sleeter, snow, like the, the mail carriers. Thank you.
Chris Jones: Yeah, no, it is, it is funny. One of the funniest things that happened is I pulled up and my assistant suit was out there first. He had taken his shoes off and he had his pants rolled up around his knees. He looked like Huck Finn because it was raining so bad. He put his shoes off the side.
You know, when you talk about gratitude, it's, it's being grateful for every aspect of life. Not just the positives, but you know, what, what positives are within the negatives that are occurring.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. And that negativity bias is, is hard to overcome. And I mean, even you and I were chatting before and I was like, I've been knocked down a few things today.
It's been a little bit of a rough day, some bad news after bad news. But at the end I can take a deep breath and go, you know what? There is a lot of really good going on so I can shift even when I get bogged down a little bit. It's for me, having a grateful disposition has helped me shift out of it a lot faster.
Chris Jones: You're right though it is difficult cuz that negativity creeps in. My, my wife and I'll talk about our two boys and we are just so blessed with our two boys. We're so pleased with the young men that they're turning into that, but hey, they're 16 and 14, so it's almost guaranteed they're gonna try to do stupid things from time to time.
And so they'll do something that has us scratching our head or that get us a little miffed to put it politely and we'll look at each other afterwards, after talking to the boys wherever they go. You know, in the big scheme of things really just let 'em have this one, because, you know, they can do their little consequence, but we are so lucky to have the boys that we have.
So it's, it's that big. It's, again, it's like I said at the beginning of that stepping back big picture.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I have a chant I do now, now that I have a tween, and it's still developing a prefrontal cortex, still developing a prefrontal cortex, still developing a prefrontal cortex.
They're still going. There is still more work to be done and I am here for it. Ill support them. Ill not take things personally that have absolutely nothing to do with me. It's a reminder. I try and give myself.
Chris Jones: It's not their fault. It's not their fault.
Lainie Rowell: That's the more condensed version of the chant. Yes. Alright, my friend, I need to honor your time. I wanna make sure and give you an opportunity to give a shout out, and then I'm gonna ask you to share how people can get in touch with you. But let's first go ahead and who would you like to give a shout out to?
Chris Jones: First I'll do the professional one because this is usually a shout out that I give, but there is a fantastic man by the name of Danny Bauer from Better Leaders, Better Schools that I started with him and his masterminds before masterminds were the, were the, the key thing to do in 2017.
And I would, boy, looking at myself in 2017 and the leader I was worlds away from where I am now. I wouldn't be the leader or the person I am right now without his guidance and his mentorship. So that's, if you ever get a chance to look him up and do any work with him, just Yes, a hundred percent, yes.
Lainie Rowell: Full endorsement, Gratitude and endorsement.
Chris Jones: Yes. Gratitude and endorsement. He just a, just everything he's done for me and, and he really is a, a fantastic example of continuing to evolve and improve himself by working on himself. While he helps others and serves others. So the personal one, I, I have to give a shout out to my wife.
My wife is a seventh and eighth grade teacher. Something that I look at her and I say, you are a warrior. I'd never be able to do that. But she teaches English and she's too shy to say it, but she just received an award for teaching for her work with inclusion and making sure that all students have an equal opportunity to learn and are successful at doing it. And it's the first time that award was ever given to a middle school or high school teacher, cuz they're a junior senior. Really proud of her. Her name is Mary Ilo Jones.
Lainie Rowell: Thank you, Mary, for your work and for everything you're doing and happy that your husband is willing to brag for you because that is something worthy of bragging about.
Chris Jones: Oh, absolutely. She really is and I know, yes, I'm completely objective. She really is lights out in the classroom.
I mean, she gets up on desks and sings and all kinds of things. Teaches the kids songs to learn by always moving around the room just full of energy. I get tired watching her, but she just really does a fantastic job and, and the kids let her know it too. So it's excellent.
Lainie Rowell: Amazing. And I will admit, I was like, you, Chris, I was not what they would call a star student. I was maybe also there being like, when is this gonna be over? And sounds like I would've really enjoyed being in your wife's class.
My friend. I wanna make sure people know how to reach out to you. So where do you like to hang out on the line? On the line? Where do you like to hang out online?
Where, where's the best way for people to connect with?
Chris Jones: You know, probably probably Twitter. I play with Insta and all those others, but I'm, I'm, and I do Facebook, but Twitter's really easy to get ahold of me. It's @DrCSJones. And I'm pretty much @DrCSJones everywhere. If people want to reach out to me via email, it's drchrissj@gmail.com and if they want to go to my website, it's teamjonesedu.com.
Lainie Rowell: Amazing. I'm gonna put all of that linked in the show notes, so you've got to hear it. My friends who are listening, and if you look in the show notes where I put lots of gems you'll just be able to touch or click on it. So please be sure to connect with Dr. Jones. Be sure to listen to his podcast, grab a copy of his book.
He's putting really, really great things out there. He also shares great things on social media, so make sure to follow him there so you can catch all the goodness like I do. All right.
Chris Jones: Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time to have me on your show. I could talk to you forever, so thank you for being the one bold enough to say, Hey, we've gotta wrap this up.
Lainie Rowell: It's only to honor your time because I could talk to you forever as well, but I know that even though you're on summer break and things are slightly slower that you've got a million things to do.
Friends, thank you for listening and don't forget to check out Dr. Jones all on the web, all over the places. He's got great stuff.
All right, my friends. Thank you for listening.