Lainie Rowell

About Our Guest:

George Couros is a worldwide leader in the area of innovative teaching, learning, and leading, and has a focus on innovation as a human endeavor. Most importantly, he is a proud father and husband.

His belief that meaningful change happens when you first connect to people’s hearts, is modeled in his writing and speaking. In his 20-plus years in the field of education, he has worked at all levels of school, from K-12 as a teacher, technology facilitator, and school and district administrator, and is currently an Adjunct Instructor with the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania.

George is also the author of the books, ⁠The Innovator’s Mindset, Innovate Inside the Box, Because of a Teacher, Because of a Teacher 2⁠, and his latest release, ⁠What Makes a Great Principal⁠.

Thrive Global Article:

I recently interviewed George about his health journey for Thrive and you can check out that article here: George Couros on Optimizing Health and Life

Connect with and learn from George Couros:

Website: ⁠⁠georgecouros.ca⁠⁠
X/Twitter: ⁠⁠@gcouros⁠⁠
Instagram: ⁠⁠@gcouros⁠

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP!

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: All right, friends. I have a real treat for you today. The return of the George Couros. Hi, George.

George Couros: Let's go. I am so pumped. I'm number one, number 100. And so, I don't know, maybe 1, 000, right? Is that what's happening?

Lainie Rowell: No, we're gonna, we're gonna get you back before then.

George Couros: I don't know.

Lainie Rowell: I should have probably made it like every 10 episodes.

So you could have been 10, 20, 30, 40. But I have been anticipating and we have been plotting this for a very long time. I guess I'm the plotter. You're just, you're just kind and giving me your time. But I have been so excited to have you as episode 100. You are episode number one. Like you said, you are still the most listened to episode of all time.

George Couros: Really? Well, it's probably just because I'm, like, ahead of everyone.

Lainie Rowell: Nope, nope. I, it's it's, it's a, it's a good, steady lead. Like, you're

George Couros: Okay, let's, let's, let's, let's, first of all, before we kind of get into any of this stuff, Like, first of all, congratulations on doing this because to actually get to a hundred podcasts means you have to have some consistency and a lot of people like get excited about this stuff.

They do it and then they quit right away. And I think that's like a huge issue in a lot of the stuff we do. Like, think about education. A lot of school districts. You know like, ooh we're like so into this, and then, it's like, by the end of the episode they're like, nah, we're doing a new thing. And then it's like, oh why are people so frustrated.

So good for you, because I think that consistency and you know, putting yourself out there, having guests, inviting people, elevating them including myself. is a, is a huge kudos to you. So I, I am honored to have been on here twice, right? I'm the only person who's been on twice too, right? That, you were the first

Lainie Rowell: person, okay, let's be clear.

You're the first person I asked to return, but I saved you for the spot 100.

George Couros: I gotcha. Okay. Is

Lainie Rowell: that fair? It's not fair.

George Couros: Whatever.

Lainie Rowell: And I also.

George Couros: I'm honored, I'm honored. I'm very proud of you for. All you put out there too.

Lainie Rowell: Thank you. Well, and you are such an amazing, not only one of my besties, but such an amazing mentor.

You're so patient and so kind and you lift so many people up and even before we hit record, you were coaching me up on some things that I could do and I really appreciate it because I listen to everything you say and I do my best to execute on it because it's brilliant advice. I don't always execute as good as I could but I'm trying and so thank you for that.

George Couros: I don't, I don't, this is the thing about me and people know this, who are, I don't waste my time on people who don't like listen to my advice. Right. So like, if you're, if I know you'll never listen to it, I just, I don't even bother and I know, and that's the thing. Right. So I know you probably heard me tell the story before I ref basketball.

I know people are like, Oh, he's already talking basketball, but yeah,

Lainie Rowell: I'm here for it,

George Couros: that's what happens. So when I ref basketball like, and I got to a very high level and this was something I was considering doing professionally, it was really important to me. The thing that was really interesting is that you'd ref a half and there'd be, you know, a high level games and there'd be an evaluator sitting in the stands.

And then the evaluator, you'd go in at halftime and they would rip you apart. There's no positive sandwiches because, because there's no time, right? They got to tell you what you're doing wrong because you got 10 minutes. So they're like, don't do this. This is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong. And the referees that always do the best in the sport were the ones who took the advice and tried it in the second half. And so if you're like I need to think about it and all this other stuff, like you're, you're done. You're, you're out. Right. So, and it doesn't mean that you always took it and you kept it forever, but at least they saw you are giving an effort to get better.

That's what matters, that you're open to the advice. You're open to trying new things. And so I always think about that because that was something I look forward as a principal, I look forward when I worked in central office. Who are those people that were open to challenge, to, you know, learning new things.

And I try to model this myself, like I am constantly tweaking stuff that I'm doing. I am in pursuit of the best habits in the world. And I will, I will take what works, I will get rid of what doesn't. But I'm always trying to learn. I'm always trying to get better with this stuff. So, you know, I, I don't ask anyone to do anything I'm not willing to do myself and you are so willing to try these new things.

So I'm very, that's why I'm very proud of you is that I know you don't listen to my advice a hundred percent and that's okay, but you, you're a good 90 something. Right. But it doesn't mean you stick with it. It doesn't mean you stick with it, but I know you'll try. You'll try. Cause you want to get better just like I do.

Right.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah. Well, in I love that example you're giving of the evaluator giving halftime advice and the people who improved the best were the ones who were implementing it in second half. And I think that's relevant to pretty much any sort of improvement that you want to do. I mean, we know this for professional learning.

If you don't implement it right away, it's never going to happen, right? That's just, that's gone. That's gone.

George Couros: It is. And it's totally, and it's actually one of the things I really encouraged, I was in Comac in New York, it's a school district in Long Island, and what was, one of the things that I thought was really powerful is they had students there, something I worked with them, said like, hey, make sure you have students on the PD day.

And what I love about it is that when the kids are hearing what the, what the staff is learning, there's more of an accountability. Cause they're like, are you going to do any of that stuff? Like, are you just like, what are you doing? Right. And I think that there's some power in that when you have students involved in professional learning, you're getting their feedback.

And as someone who comes in to speak to districts, the first people I go to after like, I'm done talking is, is the students. I'm like, what'd you think? What, like, what did you like? What didn't you like? Because that's who I'm ultimately trying to serve, right? I'm not like, I, I always talk about the importance of student voice, but actually it's not like I just want to hear it.

I want to build upon it and try to get better and like understand it. So that's something I think is really important because a lot of times we walk into these professional learning sessions and we don't do anything with it. And one of the things I've talked about quite a bit lately, you know, this whole notion, I, I don't think I've been to a bad PD in 15 years.

And it's not saying the presenter has been bad or you know, the content's not great because I don't depend on someone else making my learning happening for me. I say, okay, what am I getting from this? What am I going to take out of this? How will I use this? And so I always own it and I'm never dependent upon that.

And I think that's a really important aspect is there's a really great Stephen Downs quote. I cannot remember. It's like like basically we have to understand that learning is not something provided for us, but it's basically something we create ourselves. And that's, I've really embraced that and you do this too.

I do this. You don't take everything I say a hundred percent, you make it your own, but you still try in some way. And I think that's what matters. It's not like just listen blindly to people and do whatever they say. But it's like, Hey, like what, what works there? What doesn't, what works for you? How do you make that your own?

That's, that's, I think is really important.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's about, okay, well, here's what you're trying to accomplish. Here are some things that you could do, but make it your own. And I really appreciate, like, even in the conversation we had before we hit record, you were giving me some advice, and you were giving me the room to make it my own.

Like, it doesn't have to be exactly how you've done it or someone else has done it, but these are principles of what's going to give you the best outcome, if you will?

George Couros: Hey, I'll tell you this straight up. This is going to sound very arrogant. I am 100 percent the best version of George Couros.

Nobody can be George Couros like George Couros can be George Couros, right? And so, if you try just to replicate exactly what I'm doing, and you try to be me, I'm going to always be better at you than that. But if you actually focus on what is, what's really Lainie about this, that's where that power comes in.

I think that sometimes we just try to like, emulate other people, and then we lose ourselves in the process. Right? I'm not saying George is the best person. I feel like this is a Seinfeld episode where I'm referring to myself in the third person, right? I'm not saying George is the best. I'm saying I'm the best George Couros.

That's it. Because I'm like, I'm authentically me. I stick to what I believe in, what matters to me and what are my strengths? How do I bring that out? And so that's why that's so important is that if you emulate everything I would do, you're trying to be me and I'm always gonna be a better me than you could be me. You gotta be you, right?

Lainie Rowell: Right, I know exactly what you're saying. And it's not that I want to be just like George, although that sounds like a pretty amazing deal. But what I hear you saying, and what I kind of took away from our conversation earlier is that personal responsibility, that personal accountability, like do things that are going to serve others well, do it to the best of your ability, and that will help, everyone.

George Couros: 100%. That's 100%.

Lainie Rowell: Well, speaking of your wisdom, I want to make sure we have ample time to talk about your new book baby and so would you please be so kind to tell us what we get to experience, and I feel very spoiled because I've got an advanced copy, so I've already read the masterpiece. And so, tell us about the new book.

George Couros: Well, actually with Allyson Apsey, who is someone I, I really appreciate and love. She has a great writing style. We actually co wrote a book called What Makes a Good Principal. It should be available now. I don't know when this is, unless you're live streaming this, and it's not available now. But if you're giving it a day or two, it should be available.

And so Allyson we, I, it's always kind of weird. Cause like I say, like her and I coauthored it, but we also had 15 contributors. And I think what really makes this book special is Allyson and I kind of tell stories, do the research on like, what are the five pillars of what makes a really great principal?

But we also have former principals or current principals talking about how they met those pillars. What that looks like, stories about it, but this is the most important element. We also have teachers and students saying like, I have this great principal. And here's how they did that for me.

Cause we always say like, Oh, we need to, you know, listen to those we serve, except for like, no, we like, maybe we never actually do. And so it's kind of like, yeah. So, if you are a principal, aspiring principal, and what was really cool about the book is I didn't write it cause I'm like, Oh, I'm the best principal and like, I'm going to share my wisdom is like, I had such a great principal who changed my life.

And really wrote that to honor her and what I learned from her. And I always say like, if I could have 10 percent of the impact that Kelly Wilkins, that person, who kind of inspired the book had, I would consider myself extremely successful. She is an incredible person and. Just totally changed not only my professional life, but my personal life as well.

I can say that cause , she took me from like someone who was like, I'm done. I hate education to like, I cannot imagine doing anything else. So I think that that was really important in reading the stories from the teachers and the students. I'm sitting here, writing this book and going, Oh, I wish I would have known this.

Like, there's so many things that I was like, This is such a good insight and I'm so glad we put the book together this way where we had teacher voice talking about what makes a great principal. And there was actually one criteria for the people who wrote in the book. There was one question Allyson and I would ask, Hey, have you ever had a great principal?

And if they said no, that's it, they're out. Like, they had to have someone who they considered a great principal. They cannot like, no, I have someone who's alright.

Lainie Rowell: No, and it comes through and actually, my story in Because of a Teacher was about a great principal that I had and they're totally transformative.

They're life changing. I'm on a completely different path in my life because of Monique, who was a principal that I wrote about because of a teacher, and. So one of the things that I loved as I read the book is I felt completely transported into these stories where people were talking about these outstanding principles and it was so fun because I mean you only get to experience so many principles as a student, and you only get to experience so many principals even as an educator, and you and I travel around all the time and we see a lot of principals, but when we're in and out, and I'll just speak for myself, when I'm in and out, I don't get to see all the millions of little things that are making the difference.

George Couros: Yeah, so like it actually, it's interesting to kind of come back to something we were talking about earlier. When Allyson and I talked about, like, we were like, Hey, what are these things that really make up great principles? Like, what are these? And we called them pillars, right? And we talked about these kind of big ideas.

And I actually wrote about this in my newsletter coming up the notion of visionary that, a principal has to be visionary. And one of the things that really mattered in that is we're not saying you as a principal coming into a school should create the vision yourself and decide it for everybody.

Right? In fact, being visionary is actually what we said is the last pillar you should focus on. Mm-Hmm. . 'cause you gotta know who you serve. You gotta know what you have access to. And that's gonna be different in different school communities. And so the vision is something you create together with your community.

But my vision that I create with my community versus someone else in like let's say in a California versus a Canada versus wherever is going to be different. And so when we kind of come back to the conversation earlier, Allyson and I identified these five pillars, but we also said, you have to make this your own.

Like, what does this look like to you? How do you actually create this? And even the pillars you could, it was interesting that just the cover of the book, each pillar looked different. And what people said without us saying anything about the book was it's really unique because each one is unique showing how you know principals can be really effective but totally different.

And so that's something, you know, like I don't know if you've ever seen this. There's a lot of a lot of commentary like, Oh, like introverted principals are way better than extroverted principals. I'm like, that's not true. There's no way that's true. And I'm not saying it's the opposite. I'm saying that some introverted principals are amazing and some extroverted principals are amazing, but it's like, you don't become the opposite because you're a principals.

If that makes sense. Yeah. I got, I think that like, There's no way that it's like one is better than the other. It's. Who are you? What does that look like to you? How do you bring that to life, right? And so like, as someone who is a principal, who is very extroverted I hired a somewhat introverted assistant principal because I didn't need another me.

I needed someone who was very different, who appealed to different people, and I talk about that quite a bit in the book, is like when we talk about, you know you know, really like, do we actually bring in different viewpoints or do we just bring in clones of ourselves? Because like, I can get that way cheaper because I already think the way I think.

I don't need someone to reaffirm it, right? I need someone who challenges me and makes me think differently about things. And so I think that's part of it too. There's no like perfect principal personality. Woo. Was that alliteration, right?

Lainie Rowell: Rolled right off the tongue for you.

George Couros: Perfect principal. Yeah. There's so many different versions. Like I've had, I've had really great principals who are very quiet and shy and don't like speaking in front of people. And I've had principals who were, you know, would be in front of the school every day and you know, it's, it's different. I think that's so like, you know, but you know, connecting with people really matters, no matter if you're introverted, extroverted, you know,

Lainie Rowell: And it's also contextual, right?

I mean, there's some situations where I feel like I'm an extrovert and others where I feel like I'm an introvert. So thinking about like in this situation, I'm going to be this type of person. If I can find someone that complements by being this type of person, if that makes sense.

George Couros: You're an ambivert, actually.

Did you know that?

Lainie Rowell: I, I have heard that. I have heard that.

George Couros: I'm that same way, right? Like after an extroverted conversation, I am exhausted.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's like that little battery on your phone.

George Couros: Extroverted people actually get energy from people, whereas, like, ambiverts typically become introverted after being extroverted.

Lainie Rowell: I think for everyone there's a little bit of contextuality, but yes, absolutely, there's, there's definitely some of us who, after a lot of energy put out, they're like, okay, now I need to find a dark room to sit in quietly, but.

George Couros: Right, right.

Lainie Rowell: Well, so the five pillars, if you don't mind me sharing them, because these are the universals.

And then what I think is so beautiful about the stories is, here's an example of this pillar, Relationship Builder. And it gives multiple examples, and so you get to see different slices of what a Relationship Builder looks like. Not to say these are recipes, this is how you would have to do it, but here's how it works for this person.

So we've got Relationship Builder, Continuous Learner, Talent Cultivator, Resource Maximizer, and Visionary, which you mentioned earlier, actually comes at the end because it's not just one person's vision, it's a collective, it's co created. So, are there any of these that you want to like, maybe tease into a little bit?

I have to say, I really love the stories in all of them. I think maybe the time of year that this is coming out, and I'm not going to push you into this, but if you want to talk a little bit about Talent Cultivator, as this is kind of the hiring season,

George Couros: Right. Well, so, so actually like because of a teacher, which you wrote for, right?

You're actually the first person I talked to about the idea, if you remember that.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, I remember.

George Couros: Yeah. It was a Saturday evening. Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: I can tell you where I was standing at Fashion Island in Newport Beach when we were having that conversation. Yeah.

George Couros: Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. And I, I don't, I, no personal boundaries here.

Like, Hey, I need to talk to you right now. I don't care what you're doing. Let's go.

Lainie Rowell: You were not,

George Couros: this idea will be gone.

Lainie Rowell: No, I was ready and happy to have the conversation.

George Couros: Okay. So coming back to that book, one of the, I asked three questions and the book came from my podcast. Who is a teacher that inspired you? Who is an administrator that inspired you? What advice would you give to your first year teacher self, right? And so, in Because of a Teacher, we have, you know, three parts answering each one of those questions from five different perspectives. The thing with the talent you know, when we're talking about like maximizing talent, being a talent cultivator, one of the things that is so universal in the response is when I hear about great administrators, great principals, is they saw something in me I never saw in myself.

Like, it is absolutely amazing to see that. Like, that is a consistent messaging. Like, you know, I never wanted to do this, and then I had this principle, and then this changed in me. Even talking about Kelly, I went from, I hate education, to becoming an assistant principal a year later. And, and loving education, because I didn't like, man, I hate education, now I want to boss people around.

Like, that, that wasn't the shift for me. It was like, yeah, this is. You know, I see something in me that Kelly, I had no interest in doing that. I was never, that was never, but Kelly saw something in me that I didn't understand. And seeing that, and I think it's really kind of bringing out the best in people.

And one of the things that I talk about quite a bit is when Kelly, Kelly was really powerful in the sense that she had huge turnover in her staff, but not like 2024 turnover, where everyone's leaving. But it was like, If you went to her staff, she elevated, people to, they become administrators or whatever.

She just kind of like knew how to bring something out of you and you like kind of move on. And what was interesting, it attracted people to come to the district because they knew I got a chance to work with this person. She's going to take me to a different level. Right. But there was also some people that would never leave because they're like, I want to teach.

I love being in the classroom. This is where I want to be. And she'd bring out the best of them in that practice as well. So I don't want to think like every teacher has to become an administrator or whatever, because we all know this, right? Some of the best leaders in our schools are teachers. And some of the worst leaders in our schools are administrators, right?

Leader and administrator. I actually distinguish that very distinctly in the book. So I think that's part of it is bringing that out in people is really, how do you actually bring out the best in people? And even the interview process, I'm telling a lot about the book, the interview process was so unique when I met Kelly.

Cause it wasn't like there's 10 people around the table, just firing questions at you, making no expressions. Her and Carolyn Cameron, who is the assistant principal, who has also became an amazing principal. They gave me a list.

Like it was either 10 or 15 things. And it's like, Hey, pick like five of these things that you want to talk about. And then just kind of read it over and then we'll just have a conversation. And I was like, Oh, it's kind of interesting. Like that's very, I was a little terrified. And I'll tell you in that interview, I was. balling? I was like, what is going on? Right? And it was just, I was really passionate what I was talking about. It was like, that was so unique. But it was actually like a really interesting conversation in the sense that it kind of mirrored how you would talk in a staff room kind of mirrored how you sit in an office and talk to your administrator, but there is no time where it's just like, like you're getting, if you're getting questions like this and you're actually a teacher, you're probably getting fired.

It's almost like a litigation and that really changed things because I didn't apply for like a math position or a science, I applied for a middle school teacher position. Like, that's all it said. And so she was like saying, okay, let's, let's see who's out there because we don't want to limit it to like grade seven science, even though we have a grade seven science teacher leaving and let's find the best person that we can find that fits our school community.

Right. So it didn't limit that. And so she was like, okay, this person is really good at this. Here's what we're missing in our school. Can we like make some moves in our school amongst our staff , cause he doesn't want to teach this. He'll be terrible at that. He's really good at this. So she put you in a position where your strength complimented what was needed in the school.

And then you'd be really excited to be at work every day. Cause you're like, Oh, I'm doing the thing that I want to do. And that was like, that was part of, that was amazing. Like, it was just such an incredible thing because if you like have like a grade two teaching position, then you're never going to get someone who taught, you know, high school science, you know what I mean?

Cause you're limiting, cause they're not even going to interview. Maybe it's a K to nine school. I don't know. Right. But she, you know, if you put elementary, you're going to get a different group of people who are there. If you have like K, you know, five to nine, you're a different group of people. Then it's five, nine science.

Right. So I think that, that to me was, was really, really powerful. Cause she kind of like stepped back to this person's good. Can we make some moves here? to actually tailor something to build on their strengths. And then of course you're going to do well. If someone's tailoring something to your strengths.

You're going to do well. Right. But if they're like, Hey, we're just going to fit you in. wherever, then, you know, it's not necessarily the best thing.

Lainie Rowell: Well, to have such an innovative approach to the process, not being so narrowly focused that you miss out on someone's greatness and that you can make other moves, and then also even in the actual interview, creating the conditions that would mirror the environment that you would be going into, rather than, like you said, it's not just like, we're gonna just throw a bunch of questions at you, interrogate you, make you uncomfortable like really putting you into more of the situation that you would be in if that was to happen.

George Couros: I, I had an interview about two weeks prior to that interview. And it was for like a tech position and there was 10 people sitting at a giant round table and they each asked a question, no expressions. And I was literally sick for two days after it was, it was just, this is not realistic. This is not a thing, but you know, it just, it just wasn't.

And you felt like it made you feel like, is that, that's the first impression that I'm getting? Let's say I got the job, right? Then, yeah. So, you know, it's like, if it felt like a firing squad, to be honest, it was like, It was terrifying, and it was like, this is a Like I'm also making a decision as well, right?

So I think that's, you got it. We got to think about this a little bit differently. Like, and why do people do the interview that way is that's how they were interviewed and whatever. So I just, I appreciate, you know, having people who are, are questioning and saying like, do we really need to do it that way?

Like, why are we doing this? And, and asking that question and Kelly was always good, you know, and like. She knows, and the beautiful thing, I tell her how much of an impact she's having on me, and she's just like, ah, whatever. She's just like, because there's like, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people she's had the same impact on.

Lainie Rowell: Right, right. Well, and I, and even tying how the process of hiring is, You're still wanting to build on all these pillars. It's still a part of relationship building, right? That's your very first impression. And so if you were to have had those two interview experiences within the same day or two, and they both come through with an offer, you're obviously, no question about which one you're going to go to.

So I think it's really important you're mentioning this is a two way, you're making decisions too. It's not just, it's not just those who are interviewing.

George Couros: And like, you know, that, that was a time where it was like, I was desperate for a job and I would have probably taken anyone, but I would have been mad, you know what I mean?

But now people have to see, you know, people are like, I don't want to be, that's not what I want to do. This is not what I want to, you know, I don't want to feel like this when I come in here. And I want, like we're always talking about welcoming and warm environment for our students while we're crapping on the adults.

Right. So I think that to me is that really, really matters. So it, and it, it totally, when I did interviews, I stole all that stuff from Kelly. Like its very different. And one of the things I can't remember if I talked about this in the book. So this might be a little bonus. , if you didn't get the job, if you did not get the job with me and like, let's say we interviewed four people, only one's getting the job.

I like took hours of my time having conversations with the three people who didn't get the job to help them and say like, Hey, here's something I would consider. Here's something, you know, here's something really good. Here's something to do this. And because I don't want to say like, Hey, thanks for coming, but you didn't get the job and just have that.

It's like, these people are going to go work with kids somewhere. So I want to make sure they, I set them up for success. And here's what's beautiful. I remember one teacher. I like gave her so much advice when she didn't get the job. And a week later, she's like, I just got a job and it is totally because you sat down and talked with me.

So she's now advocating for me. Like she wants people to go to my school, someone who I didn't hire loves me, because I helped her in that too. I always think about how important it is that we set up people for success, whether they work in our school or not, right?

Because they're going to be working with kids somewhere, you know, like, Hey, I really love kids except for those ones. I don't like those kids. I hope they all fail because they don't make us look better. No, you're like, you know, you never know who's going to be teaching who and you want to set them up for success.

So that was really important to me and that's something that, you know, I've learned from having really great principals, great leaders in my lifetime.

Lainie Rowell: Amazing. I love it so much. Okay. I know I got to let you go here, but I want to make sure people know What Makes a Great Principal, by the time this comes out, it will be available.

So I'll make sure to put the link to purchase in the show notes so people can grab their copy. So excited. Allyson has been a guest on the show. Now you've been a guest on the show twice. Thank you both for your time here. And what are the best ways for people to get in touch with you, George? I'll put it.

George Couros: The best way is to actually get a copy of Evolving with Gratitude by Lainie, because that's a wonderful book.

And I think that, you know, I am saying this because I'm very grateful for you, but you know, for me, you can find me on just Google George Couros. You'll find all my stuff. So but make sure you, yeah, as much as I love for you to get pick up a copy of What Makes a Great Principal, Evolving with Gratitude is also a great book.

So, you know, you can kind of combo them, buy one as a present for yourself, one as something for someone else, but make sure that you, you pick up a copy of Lainie's books because they are absolutely wonderful.

Lainie Rowell: You're so, you're so kind, George. Oh my gosh. I don't know how to follow that, but I do appreciate you.

I hope people grab a copy of What Makes a Great Principal. And sure, get Evolving with Gratitude. George is in there too. Got a story in there too. So you can get it. You can get them in both places, but definitely check out What Makes a Great Principal. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom.

And you are constantly inspiring me. Thank you, George.

George Couros: All right. See you at episode 1000. I've already confirmed the spot.

Lainie Rowell: It's yours. Locked in.

George Couros: Bye, everyone. Have a wonderful day.. Thanks.

If you're grateful for this episode, please be sure to subscribe today. And if you're feeling really thankful, please submit a review and share with others so they know the value. One last thing, please connect on social media using the hashtag EvolvingWithGratitude to share your gratitude stories.

Lainie Rowell

April 23, 2024

Episode 99 - Distracting the Amygdala and Thriving with Charle Peck

Lainie Rowell

April 23, 2024

Shownotes:

Get ready for an enlightening episode with Charle Peck, a powerhouse whose journey from high school teacher to clinical therapist is nothing short of inspiring! Discover how Charle harnesses her profound insights into adolescent minds to revolutionize mental health in schools. Prepare to be intrigued as she shares how simple, playful strategies can drastically shift the energy in classrooms and beyond, transforming challenges into opportunities for growth!

Trailer

About Our Guest:

Charle Peck is the co-creator of Thriving School Community, a revolutionary program designed for schools to improve mental health. With over 20 years of education and mental health leadership experience, she has the unique lens of both a certified teacher and a licensed clinical therapist specializing in trauma.

Charle holds an MS in Education and an MS in Social Work. Her role as a high school teacher coupled with her work with children and families in crisis gives her incredible insight into solving youth mental health problems stemming from our schools.

She is the co-author of Improving School Mental Health: The Thriving School Community Solution and a global keynote speaker delivering powerful messages of hope to educators.

Connect with and learn from Charle:

Website: thrivingschool.org
X: @CharlePeck
LinkedIn: @charle-peck
Podcast: Thriving Educator

About Lainie:

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP!

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello friends and hello Charle. Welcome to the show.

Charle Peck: Hey, thank you so much for having me on here, Lainie.

Lainie Rowell: I am so excited. Friends, I have to warn you, this is someone I could talk to for hours and hours and I'm going to just try and be so good about watching the clock so I don't take up too much of her time, but I'm thrilled for the time I do get with you, Charle.

And so I'm going to start off with kind of a wide question, but you have such a unique perspective and background, having been a high school teacher and then a clinical therapist, which I'm just so fascinated to learn a little bit more about your journey, your story.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well, you know what, when you teach adolescents, you learn so much about them.

They divulge so much information about their, their lives, but my curriculum was pretty amazing. I got to teach about personal and family relationships and you know, Problems in society, ultimately, and there's a lot more in between. But what happened is kids were telling me their problems and, it organically came up and I didn't realize why they were struggling so much.

I couldn't understand it. And so, because I got to teach about mental health and talk with them and teach them about their brain, I got really curious about, How can we solve this problem? I mean, there's so many of us adults surrounding them, but they're still struggling. So I, I did some leadership on the district level and I did some in the school and, and did some professional development and all that.

But instead of going the principal route, which is where I was headed, I, Pulled out of that and I decided I'm going to go get my Master of Social Work degree so that I can understand structurally what was going on to contribute to these darn problems and that was one of the best things I could do because it gave me that perspective and I knew I needed to become a clinical therapist.

I wanted to work clinically. but also specializing in trauma. And so trauma is one of those words that gets eye rolls because people don't understand it, so I don't always use it. But I'll tell you, it does help me understand what's going on in the brain and the body and why our kids are showing up with these behaviors that are making us uncomfortable in education.

So that's the gist. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I'm going to ask you to clarify because I was a psych major, so I do know what clinician means, but to someone who may not know that terminology, what does that mean? How is that different from. Maybe another avenue of social work that you could have gone down.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well, I mean, there's lots of different ways to, to help people, right? And if you think clinical, you think like people are, you're going to go into a doctor's office or, or something, but it's, it is about treatment and it's about looking at somebody coming to me and saying, this is the problem. This is what I'm going through.

And how can we apply a treatment plan and especially working with a group like when I worked at a hospital in a hospital setting in crisis, it wasn't about let's use theory to help them think this through. It's how can we work together as a team and come up with a treatment plan for this patient.

So it was, it was more like that. And it also goes beyond research and it uses research to apply to just help people feel better and function better.

Lainie Rowell: , I love that you did that, and I also love when I hear you talking about theory to practice, right, like you want to actually be on those front lines to say, like, we tried this, this worked, obviously knowing that we're all unique and dynamic, but I know that you took it even further than that. with your book, right? Because, and, and I'm actually holding your book right here for those, I know, I don't do video, mostly because I don't want to see my own face, but I don't do videos, so you can't see me holding it up, but I have Improving School Mental Health by Charle Peck and Cameron Caswell.

I have it well marked up. I'm going to go to one of the things that you said, because I think this is maybe something that we want to talk a little bit about. It says, on page 33. It says "the problem is we're trying to teach students to better manage themselves, but then throw them right back into the same stressful environments that caused the issue in the first place. This leaves them little chance to thrive." It breaks your heart. It just totally breaks your heart. And I think, like, I, as I read through the entire book, that one stood out to me as a, this is why people should read this book. And I don't use that word should lightly, because I know that that can be triggering for some people.

And I, you and I both actually have written, I've seen it, that where you can cross out the should and say could. But I actually think this is one that is very important for people to read. And so tell us a little bit about kind of the catalyst for writing Improving School Mental Health.

Charle Peck: Yes, and it's important that you pulled out that particular piece because it is essential.

It's foundational. I mean, I've been thinking about this, Lainie, for over 10 years about this problem and how we can solve this for kids. And part of what I started thinking about is we're teaching SEL. We're teaching advisory. I mean, we've been teaching SEL for over 30 years now, which is great. I mean, it's, it's great.

There's great evidence for this. Now, the problem is, as we teach this to kids, and how many, how many sessions have we been through in PD where it says, okay, help the kids be resilient, help the kids do this. And relationally, how many times are we trying to fix the other person? And so when I was thinking about kids and Cam and I were talking about this, like, why are we worried about equipping these kids so much when we're throwing them back with these adults who are not equipped themselves?

And the data kept showing me, too, is, you know, 93 percent of our educators who are out there teaching kids on the front line They want to support kids, but they don't feel equipped to do that. I mean, 93 percent of them are reporting that and they're frustrated. And these behaviors that show up in front of us that make us so uncomfortable, we don't know how to sit with it.

We don't know how to guide them. We don't know what to do with it. We're putting all the ownership on kids to make this better. It just didn't make any sense to us. So that's why we came up with skills that are actually something that you can infuse into everyday practice that you can pick up pretty quickly.

That's where my background as an educator and my background as a clinical therapist really works well because I was sitting in those therapy sessions with these kids and families and like, well, we can do this in our schools too. By the way, teachers could do this with you. Why aren't they doing that now?

So that, I mean, that's a lot, a lot to take on and think about, but that's exactly why we wrote that.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think it's important to realize, and Marc Brackett was just on the podcast, and at the very end, I'm like, what's one thing that you just really want to make sure people know?

And he said it's about creating the communities, creating the spaces where we can take care of each other. It's not enough to figure out how to regulate on your own, or how to figure out, you know, anything, how to deal with those feelings. It's if you're constantly being put in an unhealthy situation. And so with, of course, the best of intentions and educators are so hardworking, so dedicated, and they do so much.

But as you said, a lot of them don't feel equipped to handle it. And so I think what the good news is, is that there are actually really small practices. It would be really hard if our message, and I think our work aligns so well, but I think it would be really hard if our message was, you're going to have to throw out, all the academics, you're going to have to throw out the things that maybe brought you into teaching that you love the most and you're going to have to focus on SEL all day, every day. I think that would be like a really tough sell, but the good news is it's not that. It's actually small things that we can do to retrain our brains and to help the community thrive.

Not just the individual, but the community too. I think that's so important.

Charle Peck: It is. It's got to be the community. Think about somebody who's trying to learn a language. If we're teaching kids language, we have to be teaching that too. We have to be talking it. We have to be living it. We have to talk about all the cultural aspects that come into play.

And by the way, it's not adding it on piece by piece. It's about living amongst it. And it, but it has to be so simple that we'll actually do it, especially because we're in the midst of crisis. It's just like the work that you're doing in gratitude, Lainie. It, it's, there's tons of evidence behind it, but nobody wants to hear about that.

They want to say, well, how can I use it and how can I do it so simply that it will work?

Lainie Rowell: Okay, so my five star review came through on Amazon yesterday. So you can, you can see that because that's, that's my love language. And so one of the things that I talk about in that review is that this isn't just a book, it's a tool.

One that educators, administrators, and mental health professionals can all use with confidence to foster this supportive and understanding and healthy environment. And so one of the things, I mean, I could go on and on about how I really love the smart moves that you and Cam made as far as graphically and just like where you place things, but I won't nerd out on that as much, but I do want to nerd out a little bit on what are some of the, you know, I love practical and actionable and you have in the book these rapid resets and I wonder if you could just give us a little taste and maybe one of your favorite rapid resets or maybe one that people would be surprised because they've never heard of this one before because there were ones in there that I had not heard of before.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well some of them I just adapted on my own because It was just in the moment with kids, working with kids. And by the way, we do this with adults too, but rapid resets, the reason we call it that, you would think of a brain energizer. Everybody knows about brain energizers. It's about retraining the brain to do something or refocusing when you need it.

I always say it's about switching the energy in a classroom or a meeting, a meeting too. But also this worked in crisis when I was working with kids and oftentimes there would be kids who were, you could tell that they weren't regulating or they were anxious. And what we needed to do was to distract their amygdala.

So there's a lot of training I got in CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, DBT a lot of all of these technical trainings that I got, even in trauma processing. And I thought, well, gosh, there's a basic underlying piece there. We need to distract the amygdala. We need to find our calm, but nobody likes to be told to calm down or to just breathe sometimes.

Right. And so it needed to be playful. And it also needed to be something that would just work in a moment's notice very quickly that teachers could do to benefit themselves as well. And in front of a group where you need to change energy, sometimes where it feels so overstimulating and loud, we need to calm that down.

Or, sorry, but sometimes, you know, you don't have your kids engaged and it's kind of low and you need to bring the energy up. So there's a million different ones. One that I always do that captures people and I'm going to explain it and Lainie you can try it and I know your listeners are just hearing this so I'm going to explain it in a way that you can just hear it through auditory and practice.

This is my favorite one. Everyone seems to love it and remember it. So you get one of your thumbs up and then you, Point with your pointer finger at your thumb with your other hand, okay? So one hand has a thumb up, the other hand has a pointer finger pointing at your thumb, and if you've worked with me before, you know exactly what we're gonna do next, and that is just simultaneously switching.

Okay, so now my other thumb went up on my other hand, while my finger on my pointer finger on my other hand Pointed at that thumb. Okay. And now you're just going to switch back to the other way. And then you're going to go really fast like this. And some of you are going to be like, what the heck? I can't do this.

What? And that's because your brain has not rewired to that learning yet. However, it's a great lesson, not only to refocus, it's a great lesson for growth mindset that listen, I didn't get it the first time, but boy, I'll get there. And it's playful and fun. And you get people laughing and it shuts down the stress response system.

And all of a sudden you've shifted the energy in your classroom. or your meeting, by the way. I use this even with superintendents. And and then it just, it's, it's a way that you'll notice with your kids that one is about to say something or do something that's going to throw the whole group off.

You're like, okay, everybody, I noticed that we need to do this. Let's do it. Right. So there's lots of ways to incorporate it for fun and for reason.

Lainie Rowell: And I'm so happy that this is audio only, and Charle, you did a really good job at not laughing at how badly I did that. Thank you for that. But it's because I haven't done that practice before, so I do have to learn how to do that.

But it is really fun, and it's something that you would think is so easy. It's so easy, but it's actually challenging if you haven't done it before, so give that a try. There are so many rapid resets in the book, and again, that's, that my favorite is practical and actionable books. There's a lot of really good books out on theory, but if it's something I can't put into practice with the people I serve, that for me is not going to carry as much weight.

Charle Peck: Right. Well, and I also like part of that. I like that teachers can use that for themselves because part of, part of my message is that you have to be able to manage your own mental health and wellness. And folks, this does not mean that we step out of things when they're uncomfortable. That's what we've done.

We've done that. And we don't know how to sit in that discomfort. And then when kids don't know how to do that and their behavior shows up in ways that we're like, it gives us an emotional charge. We don't know how to manage ourselves and we certainly don't know how to respond to them. The best thing we can think of is, Oh my gosh, we've got to stop everything right now, or I can't handle this and I'm out.

So I am telling you there is hope because we can manage and then stay and feel excited about the work we're doing.

Lainie Rowell: The quote that keeps popping in my head Dr. Aliza Pressman, Raising Good Humans. Podcast. Talks about all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And I think that's maybe a way to, to try and process through what can I think sometimes feel like mixed messages, because it sometimes feels like we're saying there are no bad emotions, because there aren't, right? All emotions serve a purpose.

So we can welcome all the feelings, all the emotions. What we don't welcome is all the behaviors. And I think that's where it's really important. And so when it comes a time where the behavior is not appropriate in the context, it's time to shift. And so these rapid resets, whether it's to shift up in energy or like you said, to calm down, bring it down.

We want to distract the amygdala so we can get back to behavior that is appropriate. fitting for the circumstances.

Charle Peck: That's absolutely right, Lainie. And it's important that we understand that that there's a brain body connection. So no kid is saying, I want to act like this, and look like this, and even feel like this.

And I don't want it to show this way, but, Oh my gosh, my body is responding. And so that's part of the teaching we do is, is we have this wheel of reactivity and it's, it's about, well, how is your brain that that's going off for that amygdala, because it's part of our nervous system. How is your nervous system responding to that right now?

Because right now we need to develop skills to go back to that word that you said before I think it was when I was interviewing you for my podcast is notice, notice, is essential because if we're not noticing, we can't catch ourselves and then make the shift. So I'm glad you had mentioned that. Yeah.

By the way, listeners, you need to listen to Lainie's amazing, amazing interview on my podcast called Thriving Educator, because that's going to be, I can't wait to release that too.

Lainie Rowell: Well, thank you. And this is what podcasters like to do. We like to talk to each other and hit record. And so, and I was just looking forward to getting you on this show and I want to go back to something that has has been kind of a theme here is that it's not just for kids.

It's for adults as well, right? It's that we are creating communities and these communities consist of adults and kids. And then also, even just in the workplace, and it's funny because you and I do a lot of work where we're sometimes only interacting with adults. It's funny because we do a lot of work in education, we do work outside of education, but even when we're in education, we're only doing stuff with the adults.

And I do the same practices, right? Because this is stuff that is just about being a human. It's not specific necessarily. There are considerations for developmental and all of that, but these are practices that are just across the board, good for humans.

Charle Peck: They are. And that's why there's a couple of industries that have been connecting with me.

First of all, college level programs are now contacting me to teach their college students this, especially pre service teachers. I mean, we need to get them skilled before they get into the darn classroom. Even with this stuff, it can be packaged. This is what people are coming to me for. They're like, this is classroom management strategies too.

And I said, yes, it actually is. It definitely is mental health rooted, but it absolutely is classroom management. We're looking over after our own needs and then responding effectively to conflict and reducing that conflict. But you know what, who else has been, has been coming to me, these Fortune 500 companies are coming to me and they're saying, we need this for not only employee wellness, but employee investing in our employee workforce, giving them skills because it's investing in human capital in their workforce.

So it's just, it's exploding because it, it does get back to some of the basics that we all just need to have to thrive.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. Charle, one of my favorite things about bringing in brilliant people like you is you're not here to just point out the problems, you're coming with solutions. So, tell us how does this work in a system, in an organization, in learning communities?

Charle Peck: Yes, oh my goodness. So because it's been based on needs and I've been customizing for several years to the different districts and companies that are coming to me, it's helped me to really see a longer term solution.

And so part of that is you can bring me in and do professional development. I do the half days and full day PDs and I equip. teachers, essentially, and then school counselors, I work with them, and district leaders, principals, and all that. What I had to decide is how are we going to make this long term sustainable, how are we going to build autonomy within these school districts and schools, and how are we going to make it affordable and something that we can use over and over and over to have a real transformation culturally.

That's really the goal. And so I developed this program where I, I train people. It is, it's like a train the trainer model, but not so big. And some people could just learn the skills on their own and just be done there and, and acquire those in a self paced way. And that's something that's, that's already out there.

Something else I've been working on is PD, because that's where they're like, I want more. How do I get more of this? And, and then. Are you hiring? They ask me that a lot. Or how do you equip me? So I devise this plan. It's the level two. They become, become a facilitator. So we can do that virtually. I come on site.

I can train people, a group of the mental health team members there, or I just started a retreat, which I'm excited about, which is a wellness retreat, but also they get trained and certified to run this stuff. I give them all the facilitation. And activities and all that afterwards too. So that is how we have to do it systemically.

I will not be the only one doing this. I have to equip the people already within the system who know their own system well and can work from the strengths.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, a solution that is sustainable is so critical and I think that so often we see that not happen and then budgets change, attention changes, whatever it is, and then things fall apart.

Well, that didn't work. Well, you have to have it. It has to be sustainable. That's just the only way. And so I love that you offer so many different solutions. And, I want to ask you one more question before I get to how can people connect with you. But that's coming, friends, so stay tuned, okay?

So I want to ask you this question that I love to ask, and that is, what is something you either can't share enough, I mean, something you could just have said a million, million times, but you could say it a million more times and be happy. So something you can't share enough, or something you haven't had a chance to share before.

Charle Peck: If we're not willing to make any kind of change, change will not happen. And that's exactly why Josh and I got together. I mean, I have this book of nine skills I'm really proud of and they are, they are working well, but there has to be something before that to get people ready to acquire them and use them in a way that they're going to be meaningful, not only for ourselves, but for others and learning to step outside of ourselves to create that secure space.

So that's, That's why Josh and I are writing this book about how to get there, how to get that, that mentality ready in a very easy, easy, quick way. So I'm excited about that, but listen, if we're not willing to do this, then we're not going to make the change. I just ask people to just challenge themselves.

Are you ready?

And when are you ready? And let's do this because we can.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. Well, I am so excited that Improving School Mental Health, the Thriving School Community Solution book, is already out, so people can grab this today, and where is the best place for them to get it?

Charle Peck: They can get it right on Amazon, just, just look at Improving School Mental Health and our solution, the program is the Thriving School Community Solution.

It's kind of a mouthful, but that's the best way to say it. It's a community wide approach.

Lainie Rowell: And hopefully I said it right. Did I say it right?

Charle Peck: You did. You did.

Lainie Rowell: Sometimes I go back and I listen to these episodes and I'm like, what was I saying? Those were not the words that were in my head. They came out of my mouth all different.

So I'm very excited that people can go get this right now. And then when does the Peck Stamper masterpiece hit the stands? Do we look for that soon, hopefully?

Charle Peck: Yes. Well, actually it was moved up. So we're supposed to be finished with it in August. And it's supposed to be out by early fall, even maybe August.

So we're definitely pushing for it to get out there. It's a lot of people who are asking for it, which we're really excited about.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I am very excited for that. So, Improving School Mental Health on Amazon right now. Go grab that. And then also, we've got something to look forward to from Charle Peck and Joshua Stamper.

And Charle, what is the best way for people to connect with you? I'm sure there's some spaces where people could find even more about you.

Charle Peck: Well, the easiest for everybody to remember is just go to thrivingeducator.org. That's where everything is. All the information, the speaking, the PD, that program I mentioned before.

But if you want to email me, please do. My first name is spelled C H A R L E and then at thrivingeducator. org. Reach out. We have a lot to talk about, a lot of work to do.

Lainie Rowell: Yes, and it's my job to make this as easy as possible for people to get to you and your amazing resources like the book. So I'm going to make sure everything's in the show notes.

So friends, if you're driving right now, you can just wait until you are safely parked and then go into the show notes and tap away. And we are so excited for people to get a hold of all of these resources. Have Charle out. She is such a delight and a just the wisdom, the brilliance. I really encourage people to connect with Charle Peck.

And Charle, thank you so much for being here.

Charle Peck: Wow. Thank you so much, Lainie, truly.

Lainie Rowell: And thank you all for listening.

Lainie Rowell

April 16, 2024

Episode 98 - The Surprising Way Sliding Door Moments Can Lead to Profound Gratitude

Lainie Rowell

April 16, 2024

Shownotes:

You can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

And you can find the article on Thrive Global!

⁠⁠The Surprising Way Sliding Door Moments Can Lead to Profound Gratitude⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP!

Lainie Rowell

April 9, 2024

Episode 97 - Dealing with Feelings with Marc Brackett

Lainie Rowell

April 9, 2024

Shownotes:

Join us for an eye-opening chat with Marc Brackett, where we unravel the secrets behind emotional intelligence and bust some major myths about our feelings. Marc takes us on a journey through the emotional landscape, showing us why there’s no such thing as a "bad" emotion and how understanding our feelings can transform our lives. With a mix of personal stories, science-backed insights, and actionable strategies, this episode is your guide to dealing with feelings. Don’t miss out on this engaging exploration that’s sure to shift your perspective on feelings and emotional intelligence!

Trailer

From Theory to Practice: Marc Brackett on Dealing with Feelings

About Our Guest:

As the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, Dr. Marc Brackett is professor in the Child Study Center at Yale, and author of the best-selling book, Permission to Feel , which has been translated into 25 languages.

An award-winning researcher for 25 years, Marc has raised over $100 million in grant funding and published 175 scholarly articles on the role of emotional intelligence in learning, decision making, creativity, relationships, physical and mental health, and workplace performance.

Marc is the lead developer of RULER, an evidence-based approach to social and emotional learning (SEL) that has been adopted by over 5,000 schools across the globe, improving the lives of millions of children and adults. RULER infuses the principles and skills of emotional intelligence into school systems, enhancing how administrators lead, educators teach, students learn, and families parent. It has been proven to boost academic performance, decrease school problems like bullying, enrich classroom climates, reduce teacher stress and burnout, and enhance teacher instructional practices.

Thrive Global Article:

Connect with and learn from Marc Brackett:

Website
Book
LinkedIn
Facebook
Instagram
X

About Lainie:

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

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Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Well, hello, Marc. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Marc Brackett: My pleasure to see you again.

Lainie Rowell: So I'm going to say, and I'm not trying to embarrass you, but years and years ago, the first time I met you in person, you were keynoting an event and You absolutely crushed it. It was the first time I'd heard you speak.

You just completely wowed the room, me, and then the organizers happened to sit me at the table. I was a speaker there as well, and you ended up sitting right next to me after your speech, and I didn't even know what to say. I was so like, oh my gosh, this guy is like really smart. I don't know what to say to him, but you are the most nice, genuine, brilliant person.

And I just, I just had to get that out there.

Marc Brackett: I appreciate you saying it. And it's been a lot of fun watching your career as well.

Lainie Rowell: You've been very supportive and I appreciate that. Had to get a little bit of gratitude out there. And I'm so excited to talk about your work.

One of the things that I really appreciate that you share through your books, through the web series, the webcast, all of it, is you say there's no such thing as bad emotions. And I think this is really important because I think a lot of us get it wrong thinking things like anger and stress and anxiety are bad.

But, You like to use the word unpleasant instead of negative emotions, if I've caught that correctly. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you feel like that's an important distinction?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, I think it's mostly because the way it's interpreted. So in psychology, you know, people talk about negative and positive emotions.

Happiness is a positive emotion. Sadness is a negative emotion. You know, people figure that out pretty quickly. But I think then the problem with that language is that it, it makes us think that we don't, like nobody wants to be negative. And so that means that the goal is to get rid of the negative to be positive.

And I wish it were that easy to just like get rid of the negative to be positive. Now that also makes an assumption that being positive all the time is a good thing. And it's not a good thing. Actually I did research on this that was published recently, that when people are overly positive, you know, they make sometimes worse decisions even about their health.

So, going back to the pandemic, people who are happier took more risks and didn't wear masks as much, which is interesting. They didn't engage in social distancing as much as others. And so you know, when you, you know, think about it, like even when you're spending money, right, it's like you're in a good mood.

You're like, yeah, I'm going to buy that outfit or that piece of furniture that might be more expensive than you want to spend. And so again, assumption is that positive emotions are the ones you want to grab and have all the time and negative ones, the ones you want to dump and get rid of. And so when you go to the negative emotions, which I call unpleasant feelings or emotions, Anger, right?

It's a real feeling, you know, and certainly we've seen in our own society very legitimate reasons for different groups of people to feel angry and to say that that's a bad emotion just makes no sense because it's a signal that there was an injustice that needs to be dealt with. And so I hope that kind of makes it clear.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think it does. And if I'm understanding correctly, I feel like we first of all want to have the full human experience. It just wouldn't be...

Marc Brackett: even if you didn't want to have it, you're going to have it.

I mean, like, let's face it, the pandemic hit, you know, we're spraying our groceries with Windex. It's not the most pleasant feeling.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah.

Marc Brackett: And so life is, you know, couple of years ago, I lost one of my close friends to cancer, you know, not a pleasant feeling, but a feeling that I had to deal with, you know, of loss and sadness.

And so to deny people, you know, those feelings, it's to deny people what it means to be human.

Lainie Rowell: And I do think that's one of the things that's really challenging, is finding that point of, okay, how can we help people live their best life, to flourish, if you will, without overly imposing, like, this is what you need to feel, because maybe it makes me feel uncomfortable if you don't look happy or it's like, I want to take care of the people around me, but to me it feels like a difficult needle to thread.

Marc Brackett: Well, it's also, there's assumptions in there, which are that, when we're angry, we're irrational, that when we're sad, we can't be good friends or we can't be present.

It's like, these are kind of stereotypes that we've created around emotions. And I think we have to move beyond the idea that, for example, like, in the parenting world, you know, it's like, it's gotten to a place where sometimes people feel like, well, my kid is sad, so he can't be in school and learn.

It's like, well, you can be sad and still be in class and still learn. You know, sadness is part of reality. We're just going to give you strategies to manage that sadness, because that's what people are missing, are the strategies to help them deal with their emotions. And dealing with your emotions also doesn't mean getting rid of them, you know?

So for example, there's good research to show that just the sound of, of someone you love is a healthy strategy. And think about that for a minute. So just having someone with a soothing, loving voice can help make you feel less activated or unpleasant. And you know, my point of saying this is that, a child, for example, who's in school, who has a parent who may be ill or who is going to be away at work for a few months, you know, and they're feeling lonely or sad. You know, the assumption is that that has to be solved in order for them to be good learners. They have no control over the fact that the parent has to go travel for work or that their parent might be ill.

And so what we have to do is help kids understand their feelings better and have good strategies so that they can have their feelings and also function helpfully too.

Lainie Rowell: That's helpful.

Marc Brackett: I mean, it's a lot.

Lainie Rowell: It's a lot.

Marc Brackett: That's why this is so interesting. It's a lot, but it's just, this is life.

And you know, life is not simple.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah.

Marc Brackett: It's like achieving your dreams in life. You know, it doesn't just happen. You got to work for it.

Lainie Rowell: It's a lot of work. And there's nuance. And I appreciate that. And, with that idea of the nuance and kind of how messy and complicated us as humans are, you have worked in collaboration with others on the How We Feel app.

This is actually an app I use regularly. My son asks to use it. It's really been helpful. And I wonder if you want to share a little bit about this tool that is available to everyone for free.

Marc Brackett: Yeah. Thank you. So something very kind of pleasant happened to me during the pandemic, which was that the co founder and former CEO of the company Pinterest had read my book, Permission to Feel.

And he said, you know, I'm really interested in these concepts. Maybe we could work together to figure out what we can do in terms of building tools to support people and having greater well being. And so we decided to take some of the tools that were in my book and some of the principles and other principles and strategies, too.

And we worked together, a team that that he created and a team that I created. So the scientists and the engineers and the designers, we all came together. And just spent a lot of time thinking about how do you display this in a beautiful way? You know, what are the strategies and tools that people need?

And so that's the How We Feel app, and it has a tool that we call the mood meter that's been around for a while that then asks you to describe your feelings and you can tag your feelings. It has amazing beautiful technology to support you doing breathing exercises or cognitively reframing. We've added new tools like seeing your best self.

And then it has tracking abilities so that you can look for patterns over the course of a week or a month. And you can analyze your data like, is it when I'm with my partner that I'm in the red, you know, or is it when I'm at work that I'm in the green? And then kind of just, you know get some meaning out of that.

Lainie Rowell: I love that you can look for the patterns. I definitely feel like it helps with developing emotional granularity, being able to really with accuracy say this is what I'm feeling right now. Because a lot of times I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but we get into just saying, I feel happy.

I feel sad. It's like, well, what are you really feeling? Right.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, and this is my work in schools primarily, which is giving children specific words to describe their feelings and feelings are made up of other feelings, right? There's some complex emotions. You know, I was doing a lesson actually in California just last week with a bunch of fourth graders on the feeling word of regretful, which by the way, I was going into this lesson thinking to myself.

Like, I have to really sit with this. Like, do I even know the definition myself? You know, like,

Lainie Rowell: Am I going to regret going into regretful? Yeah.

Marc Brackett: Exactly. But the kids were incredible. And I asked them to come up with other feelings that are associated with regretful. Like some kids said, well, sometimes you might feel shame because, you know, when you're regretful, sometimes you might feel guilt.

Sometimes you might feel trapped. Like these were fourth graders having this conversation with me, which, you know, I give the school a lot of credit because they've been working with RULER, which is our program now for 10 years. And so these kids grew up with a lot of emotion talk. But like they understood that concept extraordinarily well.

And they understood the difference between feeling regretful and just feeling sorry or feeling regretful and feeling guilt. And that's what this work is about.

Lainie Rowell: And I love how when you identify where you are. it asks you, do you want to shift? Do you want to move somewhere else?

Marc Brackett: Do you want to not? You must.

Lainie Rowell: Exactly, which is, is very important. And then, like you said, it's, we want to be able to, to identify the emotions and then have strategies if we do want to move. So I think that's really helpful. And I also love the idea of the patterns, which when I share this app with people, I do encourage them to use it to look for the patterns to see, is there something going on that maybe is, is there that we didn't see before.

And so, this is all connected to your book, your best selling book, Permission to Feel, and can you tell us a little bit about that? I know it's a wide question, but you talk about being an emotional scientist, not judgmental, why is that important?

Marc Brackett: Well, you know, I think, the term permission to feel sometimes, you know, throws people off, right? They're like, who are you to give me permission to feel? I've always had the permission. And I question people when they say that too, you know, some people have, you know, so for example, I recently interviewed a professor friend of mine, Ethan Kross, who studies cognitive strategies.

And he's like, you know, I really did grow up with a family that gave me permission to feel. And he's one of the rare people that have. It doesn't mean he still didn't struggle with his feelings, but he always felt like he could be his true, full feeling self and talk about his feelings. I didn't have that.

You know, he was like, I want to interview you, because when he was sharing his experience with me, I'm like, that sounds like a really different childhood. And I had good parents. They loved me a lot. But they didn't really know a lot about feelings, neither their own feelings, and they certainly didn't have to support me with mine.

And I don't blame, you know, now that I'm a 54 year old psychologist, I think back, like they really did the best they could because they had no education in emotional intelligence. They didn't know what to do. And so the Permission to Feel is a longer story, but it's just, it's about my own journey.

In terms of feeling trapped with my emotions as a kid because of abuse and bullying, and then having an uncle who was a teacher who came into my life at just the right time and asked me that question, which was, how are you feeling? And he didn't want to leave me with those feelings. He wanted to make sure I was able to do something with them that was going to be helpful.

And you know, you fast forward, that was 11 or 12 years old kind of completely put me on a different trajectory. And then I went to college decided that emotional intelligence was the thing I wanted to know more about. And then I took my uncle out of retirement and we started writing a curriculum together that then became my whole career.

And so I argue just in a very little piece of the book, it's the opening chapter, the whole book is much more skill based, but that we need feelings mentors. We need people who are deliberately in support of our healthy emotional development and who are making efforts to help us be more aware and helping us to learn strategies to deal with our feelings.

And I, by the way, have now, since my book has come out, launched a whole research project on this where tens of thousands of people have completed my research and people who report having had someone who gave them the permission to feel versus not having had someone, have different lives.

They're much more satisfied in their life, they have more purpose and meaning in their life they have better mental health, better physical health, they sleep better at night, and so there's something to this feelings mentor.

Lainie Rowell: I feel like we live in a time where no matter how amazing the work is, no matter how important the work is, you're gonna get people that push back.

And I'm just curious, what are maybe some of the misconceptions or pushback, if you will, about really encouraging the development of the emotional intelligence, becoming an emotional scientist, what have you experienced there?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, I think there's a lot of misconceptions, firstly, the one misconception is that the field of social and emotional learning, Emotional intelligence is just trying to get people to talk about their feelings all the time.

And I'm the first person to say, like, I don't want to talk about my feelings all the time, and nobody wants to listen to me talking about my feelings all the time. That would not be productive, right? I have a friend who is an oceanographer. I can tolerate maybe 15 minutes of a conversation about oceanography, and I'm like, you gotta go talk to somebody else about it.

And so, we're going to have feelings throughout the day. We want to be aware of our feelings, want to know if our feelings are helping us or hurting us achieve our goals. And then we want to have strategies to deal with our feelings. And so even research would show that it's not productive to just endlessly talk about feelings.

And, you know, we get pushed back on this in the field because some people are like, I just want to vent. And it's like, I know that's what you feel like doing, but actually it's not that productive.

Lainie Rowell: Right.

Marc Brackett: What's more productive is having someone like me or a friend. Listen to you and then say, you know, like, I hear you.

But let's think about what might be helpful for you right now. You don't want to perseverate. That's not helpful. You don't want to ruminate.

A friend of mine posted something online about something that was unpleasant that happened and then everybody commented on that person comments on top of that.

And I was like, Oh, you know, it's just like, that's not helpful in general. We think it is because we want to just get it out. We want to tell everybody what happened, but it tends to not be great for us to do that. What tends to be helpful is getting perspective and kind of managing it effectively, which doesn't mean denying the feeling.

Lainie Rowell: Right. That's where there's nuance.

Marc Brackett: Yeah. Yeah. It's a nuance, but it's a really important piece for people to know. Firstly, I mean, that's just the core that people have feelings. Those feelings need to be expressed. Otherwise, they're controlled or repressed or denied or ignored, they show up in other places like ulcers, like aggression like not living the life you want to live because you feel emotionally stuck, not helpful either.

I think really importantly for your audience, is that it's very, very clear now through multiple which are studies of studies. So recently, my colleague, Chris Cipriano published a paper with a bunch of other friends and colleagues showing very clear effects on the impact of teaching social and emotional learning.

It's like incontrovertible evidence, that you teach these skills and not only do you get better physical and mental health and better relationships, but you do better academically in literature and math and other subject areas. So when people start saying, well, this is taking away from academics, or it's not good for kids.

I always just say, how much have you looked at the research? And by the way, I'm biased because I am, I'm both a program developer, I'm a writer, a researcher, speaker on this stuff. So maybe you don't want to listen to me, even though everything I say is based in science, I don't make stuff up. But if you don't want to believe me, look at the larger studies of studies, and you'll see that it's very clear that these skills are helpful in achieving some of the most important things in life.

Lainie Rowell: You and I both spend a lot of time in education and knowing how, yes, it is going to help us physically, emotionally, also the activating the learning and, That's all really, really important and I wonder what you've seen, because your book is for everyone, it's not specific to education, although you give examples of education, what have you seen in the workplace regarding Permission to Feel?

I'm just kind of curious.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, interestingly enough, so I've done some research, and I also have a company that does training and consulting for big companies, specifically emotional intelligence in the workforce. A.. People are hungry for it. And B, believe it or not, more people feel like they have someone to talk about their feelings with at work than they do at home, which is interesting.

And I've questioned people about this and I think the rationale behind it is that, like, you're a mom or dad or whatever, you have kids and you are, like, you're kind of, you're stuck in a relationship. Right? Meaning that, like, the feelings never go, they're always there, you know, in the morning to the evening to the night, whereas, like, if I have a friend at work who's going through some difficulty and they want to chat about it, we go out for lunch, we talk about it, but then they go home, I go home, and we kind of move away from it.

And I think there's something to that in terms of why it's easier at work than it is at home. But I have found that workplaces are hungry for this. As a matter of fact, I just got off the call. I just literally, as I was taking a walk about an hour and a half ago, I had a phone call.

I can't mention who it was with, but it was with a university department that is falling apart because of the lack of emotional intelligence in the leadership and among the adults. And so they're like, can you come in? This is the best of like, can you come in for a 30 minute workshop to teach everyone how to regulate?

And like, we have to talk about this way. This is a little bit more complex than the 30 minute workshop. But so here that's another one of the challenges, something I'm writing about at present, which is that I think we've identified that people need strategies and skills, but we are a quick fix society, and some people, of course, need to take medication to support their mental health, and I'm a firm believer that that's important for a lot of people.

The question is, for how long do you need to take that? That's one big question. The second is, is it helpful? The third is either way you still have to relate to people in the real world and you need real cognitive and relational strategies to support you in dealing with your feelings because, you know, every time someone triggers you at work, you can't just pop a pill, right?

You've gotta like have a workmate, you've got a boss, you're gonna be in team meetings. Yeah. And we need to help people learn strategies on how to, A, be more emotionally intelligent in the way they interact. And I just published another study in schools, actually, I dunno if you saw this paper just recent.

Schools where there are leaders with higher emotional intelligence, there are teachers who are happier and healthier, more productive. And we even showed that during the pandemic it mattered, that it was actually more important. So if you were an educator who was, impacted, strongly by the pandemic, whether it would be that you got COVID or someone died in your family, something, you know, heavy.

If you worked in a school where the leader demonstrated higher emotional intelligence, you were less burn out, you were more satisfied with your job and you were less likely to wanna leave your job.

Lainie Rowell: Is part of that modeling, is it emotional contagion? Is it both? How is that transferring?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, that's a good question. So there's two ways to think about it. More than two, but I'm just gonna give you two right now. One is the interpersonal piece of it, right? That like, do you ever like, have you been around people who really can't regulate?

Lainie Rowell: Never. Yes, I have.

Marc Brackett: Even for themselves, right? They're, they're just for self regulators.

Like you watch them, you know, just not do a great job at dealing with their emotions. Either they, you know, whatever they do. And then sort of like that, that kind of like, you might lose some trust in that person as your leader, right? Like, my goodness, my boss is falling apart. They can't handle the stress, so how are they going to be helpful for me?

So that's one piece of it. And then the other piece of it is that the interpersonal aspects of emotional intelligence are really important. Meaning that you have to know how to talk to people. You have to know how to say, like, if I come to you as my boss Lainie, and I say, you know, Lainie, I'm just like overwhelmed, you know, and if you say to me, like, Marc, get over it.

Not helpful. If you say, let's talk about it for the next three hours,

you know, you're not going to get anything done. I'm not getting anything done. But if you have ways of kind of supporting me and saying, I hear you, why don't you try this? Or, let's try this.

Or even if it's in a team meeting, like for school, if a principal is hiring an emotional child, there's a pandemic, right? The principal can walk into that meeting and say, I'm just letting you know, like, I'm, I'm freaked out. The world's coming to an end. And like, I don't know what's happening with anything.

And everybody's like, oh shit, you know, like versus someone who comes in and says, you know. These are really weird times and none of us can make the predictions about what's going to happen. There's a lot of unknowns. A couple of things I want to share. One is we're in this together. I got you. I'm going to be here for you.

We're going to find ways for us to get together, have conversations around it, to help each other, to co regulate, maybe not using those terms, but to be supportive of each other. Totally, same exact feeling of anxiety. One is expressed that activates everybody and makes everybody freak out. The other does it in a way that is helpful and supportive and makes people feel held.

Lainie Rowell: Yes, and that reminds me of, I don't know who came up with this saying and let me know if you don't agree with it, but that concept of be a thermostat, not a thermometer, because that thermometer is just saying, it's hot in here. But that thermostat is regulating the temperature and trying to make a difference.

And so when you gave that example of someone like a principal coming in, that's anxiety I'm feeling because now I'm like, Oh, I don't, I don't know what's coming.

Marc Brackett: Yeah,

Lainie Rowell: it's contagious. I might have walked into that meeting totally fine, or, at least, better than when I walk out of it, right?

It is really contagious, so. Ooh. Now, moving into the webcast. Am I saying that right? You call it a webcast?

Marc Brackett: I do. It's not the most probably popular term, but it's all I could think of,

Lainie Rowell: No, it's fine because you know, podcast is like saturated. So I like that it's something different to say.

So in Dealing with Feelings, you have a focus on emotion regulation tips. And you're bringing in these thought leaders and you're interviewing them and you're really asking for them to share what are the evidence based strategies that you use. So tell us a little bit more about the webcast which just started. Ethan Kross came out today and I haven't had a chance to listen to it but I'm very excited to because I really love his work, but I listened to Jewel and I listened to Angela Duckworth, so tell us more.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, so I decided to do this project because for two reasons.

One is that I use social media and I was getting really annoyed with what I was seeing celebrities or influencers just saying stuff like, you know, throw your anxiety out the door and I'm like, really? Like that's your advice? You know, it just, it was really irritating for me.

And I noticed that a lot of the YouTubers. that were doing the work, or Instagrammers, TikTokers. It was all like big personalities, kind of know it alls. And it just, it really was offensive to me, you know, as a neurotic introvert, who's also a scientist, and I'm like, not working for me and not really sure it's working for anybody because it's not actual thoughtful content.

And so I said, I know that people don't love long form content. But I wanted to show people what the research shows is helpful, and I also want to do it with interesting people. And so Jewel I've known for many years, and she had a very serious mental health crisis growing up, and she's dedicated a significant aspect of her life to healing and also helping.

And so what I wanted to do was interview her to see and learn what she had learned and then pull what I heard from her and then for other people show that that actually is a research based strategy. And so like the way she was using self talk or the way she was reframing or the way she was doing breathing exercises well, you know, she's not a licensed psychologist.

She's learned from many people. And so like Let's pull and show people that what she's doing is actually research based and helpful, and how do you do it? It's the how that people want to learn. And with Angela Duckworth, interestingly enough as the person who studied grit and wrote a book on it she basically said, that she kind of lost her grit when she was working on her next book, and like, confidence was really low, and I was like, what's your strategy?

And her number one strategy was social support and perspective taking, not. Just staying up three to four o'clock in the morning and trying to write when she was kind of losing it. She kind of took a step back and just sort of like talking with people about what was going on and hearing what they had to say.

And I appreciated that. And there's a lot of research that shows, that getting some distance from whatever is bothering you can help you deal with it better later on. Ethan is going to be talking about distancing. I have James Gross coming on in a couple of weeks.

And then I have also some really interesting people, one, her name is Dr. Alfie Berlin Nolan, who studies Black mental health, and Dr. Jenny Wang, who studies Asian mental health. So really getting a cross cultural perspective on this and how different identities may require different approaches to dealing with emotions.

Lainie Rowell: I'm hooked already. I'm going to listen to every episode. Thank you, very much. Thank you. I, I really do think it's very empowering and it was really helpful to me to hear that even someone like Angela Duckworth can have struggles because, you know, she's a best selling author, she's brilliant, U Penn, all this stuff, and so when you get to hear that it's not sunshine and rainbow and chasing bunnies through the field for everyone and that there are times that we all go through.

That was really, really helpful for me. And I love, I won't say it correctly, but I love when she talks about, the thing about perspective taking is you don't always know when you need help getting a perspective. And so I'm,

Marc Brackett: yeah, when you're in it, when you're deep in it, you don't know that you need it.

It's just like when you're yelling and screaming at someone, you don't realize in that moment that your emotions are driving your behavior, right? Otherwise you'd be like, well, why am I doing this?

Lainie Rowell: Exactly. Marc, what is something that you just cannot say enough? I mean, you would stand on rooftops and yell it. You just can't tell people enough. You really want them to understand this message.

Marc Brackett: I think, you know, again, this varies by day, by week, by month for me, because I have so many things that I think are important. Right now, what I'm thinking about is that it's not on the individual to develop emotional intelligence.

It's on the community and that to do this work, it has to be done, across communities. So that means homes, schools, workplaces. We think of a skill development as like, I'm going to go learn how to do the skill. This is different. You need to be developing these skills on your own when no one else is developing them is not as helpful.

Lainie Rowell: It needs to be contextual, right? You need to be in those experiences to develop and practice. Is that fair to say?

Marc Brackett: That's the second piece of it. Actually, it's a little slightly different, which is also really important. What I'm saying is that, a kid who's being bullied in school can't go to emotional intelligence training only by themselves to figure out how to deal with the crappy environment, right?

That we've got to create emotionally intelligent environments, which means that the other kids in the classroom have to be learning this stuff, the teachers have to be learning this stuff, the bus drivers have to learn it, you know, the community members need to learn it because we want to create emotionally intelligent communities, not just emotionally intelligent individuals.

Lainie Rowell: So Marc, I get the sense with the Dealing with Feelings that maybe there's more to come and you know this already, 'cause I've told you this, I've read your book twice.

Permission to Feel, I've read twice, so I'm very much anticipating I've heard you say there's another book coming. Any, any little hints you wanna give us about that?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, so Permission to Feel was my first kind of book for the real world. I've done a lot of academic stuff, but I wanted to put out something that would help people understand why emotions matter and why we need to give each other permission to feel and learn the basics of emotional intelligence. And that's been around for a couple of years now. It's still doing well. I'm grateful for that. But what I learned throughout the pandemic was that people want more around the regulation and I wanted more around the regulation.

And, you know, for me one of the things I always say is that I don't really think I know something until I can write about it. And so until I can explain it well, that other people can understand what's going on in my head and what I know and what I read about it doesn't feel real to me. And so that's when I decided to write a second book called Dealing with Feelings.

Which will be out in about a year from now, meaning like March or April of 2025. And one way to do that was to start my webcast so I could interview really smart people and learn from them because I don't know everything for sure and I wanted to kind of meet smart people and, and ask them questions that would help me think more critically about my own work.

Lainie Rowell: It's so great. I will be eagle eye for the pre order link when that comes. I know we've got some time, but I'm eagerly anticipating it. And I know that people are going to want to connect more with you and your work. So Permission to Feel the book, I will put the link in the show notes. I will also put a link to the webcast for Dealing with Feelings.

And how else would you suggest people connect with you?

Marc Brackett: I think, you know, my website, which is, I've just redone, which is just Marc with a C, Brackett, B R A C K E T T dot com. It has links to everything from our school based programming, which is RULER, to the How We Feel app, to my work in organization, which is called Oji LifeLab, to the webcast.

If you want to read recent articles that I've written it's all there, so just MarcBrackett.com, and then you can follow me on socials from there as well.

Lainie Rowell: Marc, I know I mentioned this at the front side, that you have been not only an inspiration from afar and watching all the great work you're doing, but you have been very generous to me, dare I say, as a friend.

And so I am very grateful to you and the work that you're doing for me and for others. So thank you for this time.

Marc Brackett: You're welcome. I appreciate the work you're doing.

Lainie Rowell: Thank you.

Lainie Rowell

April 2, 2024

Episode 96 - Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?

Lainie Rowell

April 2, 2024

Shownotes:

In case you haven't heard, I'm thrilled to bring you something new: I'm aligning podcast episodes with ⁠⁠⁠⁠Thrive Global articles⁠⁠⁠⁠ so you can choose your adventure with each story - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

This episode is "Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?" and you can find the article on Thrive Global!

⁠Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌