Shownotes:
Get ready for a dynamic chat with the amazing Julie Schmidt Hasson! Dig into Julie's captivating work on reframing and navigating the twists and turns of education. Find out how teachers work their magic, turning roadblocks into opportunities and savoring those small yet mighty moments. This isn't your ordinary conversation; it's a thought-provoking conversation as we delve into the profound connections between gratitude, teaching, and personal growth! Plus Julie's golden nuggets of wisdom for bolstering resilience in seasoned educators.
About Our Guest:
Dr. Julie Hasson is a professor in School Administration at Appalachian State University. A former teacher and principal, she now teaches graduate courses in school leadership and conducts qualitative research in schools. Julie’s research on long term teacher impact is the foundation of her books, professional development programs, and TEDx Talk. She is the founder of the Chalk and Chances project and the co-host of the Lessons That Last podcast.
Website: chalkandchances.com
Latest Book: Pause, Ponder, and Persist in the Classroom
Twitter: @JulieSHasson
Instagram: @julieshasson
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Twitter - @LainieRowell
Instagram - @LainieRowell
Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available here! And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!
Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌
Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP!
Transcript:
Lainie Rowell: [00:00:00] Hello, my friends. I am so happy to share with you that we have Julie Hasson here. Welcome Julie.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Hi Lainie. I'm so excited. I've been looking forward to this.
Lainie Rowell: Well, me too. And you know, of course we have our friend in common, Sean Gaillard. He is always singing your praises and so I am just delighted to get to have this conversation with you today.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Oh, same. Thanks, Lainie.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I wanna give you a quick bio so people who may not have crossed your path, they know a little bit about you, and then I hope you'll jump in with all the extras. So, Dr. Julie Hasson is a professor in school administration at Appalachian State University. Did I say that correctly?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It's Appalachian. It took me a long time to get that right. I get a redo on that one. You're good. You're in the majority with that pronunciation.
Lainie Rowell: Okay, I'm gonna try and get it right this time. Dr. Julie Hassen is a professor in school administration at Appalachian. Did I get it?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Great. No, you were great.
Lainie Rowell: That was the second take, but I'm gonna roll with it 'cause I can't keep doing it.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: That was perfect.
Lainie Rowell: I'll take it. All right. So of course a former teacher, principal now doing graduate coursework and school leadership, and she's got a TEDx Talk.
She has done professional learning. Co-host of Lessons That Last podcast, and these are just scratching the surface. She's a beautiful author, such a wonderful writer. I recently read, Pause, Ponder, and Persist in the Classroom, How Teachers Turn Challenges into Opportunities for Impact and friends, I just absolutely love this book. Of course, there's a five star review on Amazon that you can go check out when you go to purchase the book. It's inspiring, it's practical, just loaded with these heartfelt stories.
It's like you take us on a journey. And that was really, really fun for me to go on that journey with you. So that's just like a glimpse into who Julie is. So please tell us more, Julie.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Oh, thanks Lainie, and I've been so excited to talk with you because our work intersects so beautifully. What you talk about with gratitude, I talk about with reframing and really we're talking about the same thing.
It's how the mindset we use and how we view the struggles that we are navigating, which are inevitable as educators, those challenges are going to come and it's about how we handle those challenges and turn them into beautiful opportunities. And I know both of us are about using gratitude in that process and savoring, so I'm.
Super excited for this conversation.
Lainie Rowell: Oh, yes. And I loved seeing savoring in your book. I came across that, that always gives me the chills.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Yay. Savoring. That is an intention of mine to do that more for sure, because it's such a busy time. We're talking beginning of the school year and it's so easy to just check, check, check the boxes, and go through the motions. And that savoring can make a big difference in how we feel at the end of the day.
Lainie Rowell: It really can.
Anything else you want our friends to know about you before we get into the convo?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I think you captured it. I mean, I describe myself often as a teacher and a researcher, so I'm a pretty active researcher in my role.
I do qualitative research thanks to Brene Brown for helping people know what that means. We use the same approach, grounded theory, so most of my work is grounded in interviews with educators and observations of educators, but also the stories people tell about their really impactful teachers. So a researcher but not in the way you think, certainly not in a lab or using a lot of quantitative data.
It really is a very organic way of looking at teaching, so I'm excited to talk to you about that too.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, and I think that's what makes your books so beautiful is the stories in them, is the qualitative research that you're doing and how that translates into telling the story of what's going on in classrooms and the magic that teachers are are putting out there.
So, my friend, I'm going to get you to the first question, and of course no right or wrong answer, but that first question is, what does gratitude mean to you?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: For me, it's not that gratitude takes away the struggle or even makes the struggle easier. But it helps me find the beauty in a struggle.
So right now my parents are in their mid eighties. They're both having some pretty big health challenges and the gratitude, I feel doesn't take away that reality. I mean that, that's hard. It's hard for them. It's hard for me. But what it does is now when they answer the phone, when I call, I don't take that for granted.
You know, or the, the opportunity to support them the way they've always supported me. I feel so grateful for that opportunity, but it came out of this struggle. So for me it's that reframing that you and I talk about that helps us look at a struggle and say, Okay, this, this is real and this is hard, but within it, it's some beauty and some opportunity and some grace.
Lainie Rowell: Yes, and there is sort of this bittersweetness that I think also is often associated with gratitude, even if we don't call it out explicitly. I hear you talking about the bittersweetness of you get to spend this time with your parents, but you also acknowledge that it is fleeting. And so that's something I struggle with too. We're in the same boat, my in-laws and my dad mid eighties and well, I should say a little earlier eighties because I don't want anyone to get mad at me if they're listening to this, but yes, they are getting older and I would like to believe that they would live to be a thousand.
Okay. But yeah, it's that bittersweetness of, okay, well that's really hard to, to grapple with, but I get this time with them. And so it goes, that kind of goes back to the savoring, right? When I do get to spend time, like I'm here with my in-laws in Oklahoma City while we're doing this interview, right? And so I take this little bit of time to do this interview while they're busy doing something else.
And then when we are together, I will savor that time.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: And really even for our friends and family members and the people we love who aren't in their mid eighties, we don't know how much time we have, and so we've got to practice that savoring and, and looking at the struggles as part of life.
I know you probably like me, are a fan of the Princess Bride movie and, and my favorite quote is when Wesley says to Princess Buttercup, life is pain Princess and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something. And I think it is, but within that hard stuff is the good stuff.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I'm literally reading the book Bittersweet by Susan Cain right now. I don't know if you've had a chance to read that, but it's it's a really good.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It's on my stack behind me. I can't wait to talk to you about that. Yes.
Lainie Rowell: I really appreciate that you lead off when you're talking about this is what gratitude means to me.
That it isn't all just the, the really, really amazing, like everything's wonderful, perfect. It's, it's the little things. It's acknowledging that there's hard things along the way and it. Doesn't take the hard things away. But it does help us to focus, at least I'll speak for myself. It does help us to focus on the beauty and the little things that we get to enjoy while we get to enjoy them.
And I a hundred percent agree, we don't know how long we get with anyone. Right? So we we wanna appreciate that as much as possible.
Let's go into, and I'm so excited and I do hope you'll bring in whatever of your work. 'cause you have written multiple books and your research and your role.
How does gratitude look in your life? You can go personal, professional, whatever you want.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: So in my professional life, I've been on this research project post Covid to figure out how really impactful teachers navigate challenges in a way that they leverage those challenges in the classroom as opportunities.
Opportunities for teachable moments for kids, opportunities for their own growth. Opportunities just to take a difficult situation and look at that from an improvement lens. And in that work of reframing, a challenge as an opportunity. There's a pause where we kind of get a handle on our own emotions take a deep breath.
I think we really underestimate the power of a couple deep breaths, and then we just come from this place of curiosity. Where is this coming from? What is this about? Where are the opportunities hidden in this situation? And then we persist in those practices of coming back to a place of presence and peace.
Coming back to a curious stance. Looking for those opportunities, and I think your gratitude happens in the persistent part of pause, ponder, persist. It's that practice because all of those things are a practice. It's not, oh, I learned about gratitude and now I'm set. Now I've got it. It's a daily, sometimes probably multiple times a day practice.
And so I teach reframing now in most of my professional development, especially with beginning teachers who get thrown off course pretty easily when an unexpected challenge comes. So a student shouts out something that throws off your lesson or does something that's unexpected or surprising. Okay.
What do you do now? I. How do you respond in a way that's helpful and not an emotional reaction? That's unhelpful. And then how in that dance do you strengthen the relationship with that kid and strengthen your own skills in teaching? So right now, I'm really focused on reframing as a three step sort of framework, but gratitude is a big part of that.
Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. And as I've been kind of playing with this connection, so Dr. Andrea Hussong out of University of North Carolina and her crew, I don't know if you're familiar with her work.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Yes, they are not too far.
Lainie Rowell: I didn't wanna make the assumption that because they're geographically not far from you that you are BFFs, but I thought maybe you were...
Julie Schmidt Hasson: We keep an eye on our U N C friends.
Yes.
Lainie Rowell: So they have identified the four essential components of gratitude as notice, think, feel, and do. Mm-hmm. And I see a connection here to pause, ponder, persist. Am I way off in that connection or does that make sense to you too?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It totally does, and the first time I read that work, I thought, oh my gosh, we're really coming at the same thing.
Maybe from different angles. I'm really in K 12 classrooms looking at this, but it's about being in the present moment. Because you can't notice. You've gotta pause and get in that space, not let your mind kind of catastrophize to the future, or pull in all the things you're still upset about from the past.
Be right there and take it all in. And then really be open-minded. And so I think we're both talking about getting in that same state so that then we can respond in a way that's helpful to us and more helpful to others.
Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. And you said a word that I respond to because catastrophize, that is something I am very, very good at, that I, it's.
So what you're nodding. So maybe, maybe you have experience with this too.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Absolutely. And I'll catastrophize about catastrophes that are not even my own business. So we have this beautiful, we live in the mountains on a river and downhill from us. Is the sweetest pumpkin farm and every October they've got the corn maze and pick your own pumpkins.
We've had a storm coming through, you know, the south this week, and I started worrying about what if the pumpkin farm floods and no one will have a pumpkin and the kids won't have the corn maze. And it was ridiculous Lainie like, why it's not my farm, not my pumpkins. Right.
A good sleepless night worried about the pumpkin farm.
Lainie Rowell: Like not my circus, not my monkey, whatever that saying is right? Yes, I, I totally agree. I think that's one of those things that we have to keep an eye on. I don't wanna project this onto you, but I think a lot of educators are empathic. They are looking through their student lens, the family's lens. And that's why, especially during pandemic, a lot of compassion fatigue. We see it and we wanna help. And we wanna prevent it, of course. Right? And so it's trying to find this, I feel like we keep coming back to almost this bittersweet of how can we see it, but not also take it on ourselves in a way, right?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Yes. Yes. How can we have empathy yet still notice that we are separate. Right. There's been some really good research and I wish I could cite it for you, but my brain isn't gonna work that way right now out of medical care and nursing about empathy fatigue. Yeah. And how are we empathetic and caring about the people we're serving?
And at the same time, see us separate. Yeah, so that we are not emotionally exhausted and really physically and mentally exhausted at the end of the day. That's so true for our work as educators too.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah, because as we're pausing and pondering, we have to be able to persist and if we are fatigued, we struggle to do that.
I really appreciate everything you're sharing. What else are you thinking about it doesn't have to be specific to gratitude, but what else are you thinking about, especially as we're coming into this new school year and kind of where we are in the world? I just left that really wide open for you, didn't I?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: No, that's such a good question. I've been thinking a lot about... I work with beginning teachers quite a bit, so giving them the skills they need to navigate all of these challenges. But I'm really worried about our experienced teachers and their level of resilience, because they're the big ripple makers, right?
They're mentoring the newbies. They're making this impact on kids that goes beyond anything we could ever quantify or measure, and they're leaving. And it used to be that we might lose teachers in their first five years. They would decide this isn't the right profession for them, or we might have a few retire a little bit early, but these like 15, 20 year exceptional veterans leaving is something I've been really worried about.
So I've been kind of thinking about how my framework and my work could serve teacher resilience, and how can we help them keep making those ripples? I always wanna work on the question that's keeping me up at night. So beyond the pumpkin patch, what's keeping me up at night right now is that losing these veterans and what we could do to support them better.
Lainie Rowell: I hear you. When you're talking about those ripple effects, one of the challenges in education, this is no secret, is that we don't often see those ripple effects. And so when we take the time to, like you said, reframe, and we're really digging deep into like what's going on and really intentionally looking for the good.
And then actually sharing it rather than just keeping it to ourselves. So once we cultivate that culture, my hope is that these veteran teachers will feel the appreciation, will feel the gratitude, and that that helps sustain them, that that helps build up that resilience.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I so agree, Lainie, and I think part of our problem is we've defined impact as the test scores that come at the end of the year, when really there are all of these signs of impact every day.
You know, the quiet kid who shares an answer or an idea in your class, that's a sign of a relationship you've built and an impact you've made. You know, we know we talk about the light bulb moment. That's a clear sign of impact. But even just those kids who are happy to see you, wanna tell you a story, wanna tell you a joke, write you a sweet little note or a picture.
All of those things are signs of impact. We just have to frame them that way.
Lainie Rowell: Hundred percent. And I do love that you brought up the quiet kid. So how do we model where we see all of our kids, because I do feel like that was one that really, speaking of those, those amazing, you know, 15, 20 year, these veteran teachers that we don't wanna lose.
One of them had shared with me, be really careful you don't miss those kids. Those kids that are doing the work kind of head down those kids sometimes don't hear their name at all in a school day. Right. 'cause they're just flying under the radar. And so that's one that I'm very intentional with, is trying to get to those kids that we don't hear. And it's really hard to know what's going on with them. We have the kids, the ones who are just so on it, those high performers, they're raising their hand. They're with you every minute of the lesson.
Yes. And then we've got some that we've talked about maybe a behavior, so we know something's probably going on with them. We need to check in with them. But that group that's just kind of head down, quiet. And it happens with educators too.
We have educators like that as well who are also head down and how do we see and acknowledge 'em? We want everyone to feel, you know, seen, heard, known, and valued.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Sure, and I think for me, I was that kid, so I tend to think about that. It really introverted, super shy, but hardworking.
And if I raised my hand and talked in a class, it was clear that was a class where I felt safe, where I was really engaged and for some reason just needed to share an idea and I can probably name the teachers in whose classes I did that often because they were so impactful and memorable.
So you're absolutely right. That's certainly a sign of impact and something for us to keep in mind.
Lainie Rowell: I love it. Could you tell us, 'cause I'm curious, is Safe, Seen, and Stretch is that your first book?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I co-wrote a book with my principal mentor friend, Missy Leonard It was a Dave Burgess book. We loved that whole experience. It was, I wanna say 2017. So it's been a minute called Unmapped Potential. And it really was about letting go of limiting beliefs, which is still a foundational part of the work I do. And it was a foundational part of the work I did with Missy. So that was technically the first.
And then when I left my K 12 position and became a professor and had to have a research focus, my first grade teacher, Nancy Russell, who was forever the builder of the foundation for my academic life. As I've said, a highly anxious kid, dyslexic kid super quiet. She made me love reading, feel more confident.
I don't know that I would've been on the same trajectory without Nancy in first grade. She retired when I became a professor. So my research focus became how do teachers like Mrs. Russell make this lasting impact on our lives? What do they say? What do they do? So I started interviewing teachers about their impact.
Like you said, we don't know about our ripples, at least the long-term ripples unless we connect on social media or a student sends us a letter or reaches out. So I just set up, I got a sign from Office Depot that said, talk to me about a teacher you remember and set up at craft fairs and farmer's markets and flea markets.
And I think that project is over 600 stories now about people's favorite teachers. And the stories were so detailed, it was surprising, and they were small moments that people remember when, like you said, they felt seen. And so the book is Safe, Seen and Stretched because those are the themes that came out of all of those stories.
And then pandemic happened right after I finished that research and finished writing that book, then I shifted a little to the focus on navigating challenges. So how do those Mrs. Russells take a challenge in the classroom and turn it into an opportunity for impact?
Lainie Rowell: Well, I love it and, of course I make the connection to gratitude in all of your work, and so I really...
Julie Schmidt Hasson: and it's there. You're so right. It's foundational in all of it.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I so appreciate that you took the time to set up at those farmer's markets and to go and to collect all of these stories because that qualitative data is so rich and so valuable. It's not as necessarily easy to work with, as quantitative, I mean, kind of depending on who you are, but the quantitatives a little more cut and dry, right?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It's true.
Lainie Rowell: I'm sorry, I'm just gonna kind of nerd out for a moment because I'm so fascinated.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Love that question. It is the most random in some ways. I took field notes for this one because I didn't wanna audio record participants.
I thought that might keep them from telling their stories in really authentic personal ways. So I got really good at quick field notes that didn't interfere with my connection with the storyteller, and then I just took all of those field notes and spread them out. I did it over time. So maybe I had 50 stories and I started, and then I would get initial themes that came out.
I would highlight the words people said and kind of start putting them in groups and categories. And as more stories came, I would see, okay, do these still fit, safe, seen, and stretched came pretty early as obvious themes, and I have not found a story yet in this data that doesn't fit in one of those or all of those.
So it is this crazy Jackson Pollock kind of spaghetti on the wall start, and then we begin to organize it and organize it. But the, the themes emerge from the data. So you don't go into this qualitative work, especially grounded theory, trying to prove or disprove some idea you have or some somebody else's hypothesis.
You really go in saying, I wanna explore this, and whatever emerges, emerges, which I love. But for researchers who don't like gray or messy or uncomfortable, it is probably not the best approach. It's great for me. I live in the gray. I love the messy, so yeah.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I just find it so fascinating because, like you said, you're not trying to prove a theory.
With Pause, Ponder, Persist, I felt like I was on this qualitative research journey with you, which was truly lovely to me because I am not a researcher and so I liked vicariously living through you.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Oh, thank you. I love writing narrative first person, which is so not a researcher way to write, but I'm a story collector and a storyteller, and so my approach to writing is, I'm gonna tell you this story of this research journey.
You are gonna learn along with me what I was learning as we went. And so I thank you for saying that. I hope it keeps people turning the page. Isn't that our fear as authors, like it's not just that people won't buy the book, but that people won't read the book. And I want you to keep reading to say like, where are we going next and what are we gonna find out next?
Lainie Rowell: Yes. And so I will reveal that it is unlikely to become rich selling education books, so we don't do it for the money.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: You're gonna kill someone's dream today.
Lainie Rowell: It's really not how you're gonna get rich unless you somehow make it onto the New York Times best seller list, in which case maybe that will work out for you.
But for most of us that are writing books, for other educators, we do it because we care about the message and it's what we've learned and we hope it helps other people. And so, yes, we don't just want you to get the book. We want you to read it and to see what of it you can glean to bring into your own practice.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: And then tell us what you thought of it.
Even if it's maybe not what we wanna hear or tell us what you used. Because otherwise you feel like you put it out there. And it doesn't live. But when someone says, I read it and I'm either struggling with this or I've used this, or you made me think about this. I know you feel that way too.
Yeah. It's so satisfying as a writer.
Lainie Rowell: Yes. Yes. And if you have constructive, feel free to DM rather than tweet.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Or maybe don't write that Amazon review,
Lainie Rowell: Hold off on that Amazon review. Those could really hurt. But, but no, I do wanna know, I mean, the challenging thing with the book is we can't really go back and change the book necessarily, but I do like to know, and I have had people do that where they've privately messaged I will say for, Evolving Learner, which is the first book, the subtitle, Learning from Kids, Peers, and the World.
And someone struggled with the choice of the word kids 'cause they were teaching adults. And I said, well, I'm sorry we wrote for K 12, but, it's good for me to think about, I will consider the use of that word. But I was very grateful that the person told that to me privately.
I've just now shared it with everyone, but it's fine. It's fine.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I love the word kids Lainie 'cause, because for us in K 12, it's the point of everything. Like if we write something or we give professional development or we talk about something and we don't focus on kids and students, what's the point? So I, I'm team kid with you.
Lainie Rowell: Okay. Yay. Thank you. Well, I still do love that word because I do, I think you're saying the same thing. It does kind of ground me and remember they're little people still being shaped and it's our job to help them even if they're 17 years old, they're still a kid and I'll even hear college football coaches say they're still kids.
And I love that.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I say it half the time about my doctoral students and I think my youngest one is probably in her thirties right now, and I will forever slip and call them kids because that's, Just the way you feel about your students, you're seeing them develop and grow. So no, you, you kid away.
Lainie Rowell: Okay. We're on same team. Cool, cool. Well, okay, so is there anything else that you would like to share about your work before we get into your shout out? 'cause I know 30 minutes goes by really, really fast, so
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It definitely does, and I think you've asked such good questions. I people have a handle on what I am interested in and do.
So really what I'm constantly wrestling with and I, I like the sort of metaphor of wrestling an octopus, like a big question about teaching that has all these arms and you're trying to just sort of make what's really abstract about our work more concrete and understandable. And for me as a researcher, my goal is to make it accessible.
I don't want it to just live in a academic journal where my mom and three colleagues read it. You know, I really want teachers be to be able to take the work and use it and let it change their practice. So thank you for asking those great questions.
Lainie Rowell: You're very generous. I just love picking your brain because the work you do is very fascinating to me. And so again, the qualitative and turning it into these beautiful stories that teach us, I think that's just such a gift.
Alright, that brings us to, I don't know if this is people's favorite part or least favorite part or somewhere in between, but who would you like to give a shout out to?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: My gratitude shout out today is going to be Laura Estes-Swilley, who has been my buddy since seventh grade.
So we've had a four decades friendship, like tight friendship. And who gets to do that, like have the same best bud for decades. But she's family at this point and she has been with me on this research journey. We were teachers together in the same district. She's high school. I've always been elementary, but we, we went on that road together. When I became a professor and started this research project, she as someone who continued to stay in the classroom, was such a supporter of the work, and she kept asking for a book, that was just the stories. For the mornings before she went out to hall duty, she said, I just need this to be part of my morning routine.
I want to open to a story, read a story every day, and let that inspire me for the day. And finally, last year I said, I will do it if you will help me. So I gave her 185 stories. We sort of culled through them all and picked them together and she wrote the reflections. So that book lessons that last is coming out in October.
And while we were working on the book, we would have these Zoom calls about the stories and we would kind of unpack the stories and that became the Lessons That Last podcast. Which probably feels like you're sitting between the two of us on a couch talking about these stories. But who gets to write a book and do a podcast with their best friend of 40 years, you know, I do.
And I am so grateful for her and so grateful for that journey. And any successful woman, I would say has some really great women friends standing behind them or maybe sometimes holding them up, and she is that for me.
Lainie Rowell: Oh, I love that. And I actually have listened to the show and it does feel like you're sitting on the couch.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Sometimes it's ridiculous, Lainie.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I think that's a beautiful shout out and I will be happy that she gets to hear this or I hope she'll get to hear it.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Oh, we will make sure she does.
Lainie Rowell: Wonderful. Okay, so that's something to look forward to. You said that's coming out when?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: The book is coming out in October, I wanna say October 11th.
Lessons That Last coming out soon. I know, I know. We are working on that launch plan and marketing plan. Now, after you write the book, there's still work to be done, so we're working on that. But the podcast is out now. It comes out on Sundays. Yeah. In case those Sunday scaries are getting to you and you need a little inspirational story.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I feel like we're crushing dreams here about books. Writing a book is actually only a certain part of it. I don't know. It feels like it's a lot more launching it and sharing it, but that's just me.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: No, we could do a whole podcast episode just about that, couldn't we? So friends who are aspiring writers call us.
We've lived and learned.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. And we keep doing it. So , the other spoiler is, it's worth it, but it's different kinds of work than you might've anticipated, at least for me.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Exactly. Same.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I have truly enjoyed this time and I wanna make sure that people know how to connect with you.
I will put everything in the show notes, but Julie, just a real quick, what's the best way for people to connect with you and your work?
Julie Schmidt Hasson: I'm Julie S Hasson. So Schmidt is my maiden name. There's a Julie Hasson, who's a beautiful vegan chef. That's not me, that's a different one. So Julie S Hasson on all social media and the best way probably to get into my work, to access the stories is chalkandchances.com.
Lainie Rowell: Perfect. I will make sure all of that's in the show note. But chalkandchances.com is actually pretty easy to spell, so that's a good one.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It's not hard. Yeah. When I had to name it, my now son-in-law, who's a marketing guy, said, what did Mrs. Russell use to change your life? And it turns out it was a lot of chalk and a lot of chances.
So there you go.
Lainie Rowell: How lovely is that? I'm glad we got that in there. That's a great thing to know because I kind of actually wondered where that came from.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: It all goes back to Nancy Russell. Yes.
Lainie Rowell: Lovely. Well, I appreciate your time so much, Julie, and it's been really great to connect with you and I will put all your contact information so people can connect with you.
Looking forward to the next book Lessons That Last coming out.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: You can pre-order friends.
Lainie Rowell: Well, Julie, thank you for your time and thank you all for listening.
Julie Schmidt Hasson: Thank you.